How to lower the price of plant-based meat • Hacker News Board

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#161

Post by zionic » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #135

danShumway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Have you considered why we do this? How would our society be different if only well-to-do people could eat meat regularly? Would a regular guy be content with wealthy people eating steaks while jet-setting around the globe because of climate change? I think a populist uprising would occur almost immediately and we’d see heads on pikes with their decapitated mouths stuffed with cabbage for all to see. It would be supe…

The rich: steak is only for us now, for the climate and stuff

The poor: Time to eat the rich

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#162

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

tomstoms wrote: post #141

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem. Because there aren't that many. For people eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, keeping well-fed is a real concern and not everyone is pulling it off. For example, the following article is about infant nutrition but some of its comments apply to adults: Vegetarian diets in childhood and adolescence : Position paper of the nutrition committee, German S…

So we need research and educational efforts into plant based nutrition instead of pumping all tax money into marketing and subsidies for the meat and dairy industry. Big surprise. I’m raising two perfectly healthy vegan kids. They are above average on most factors that matter and continue to amaze people around us when we tell them they are vegan. There is so much misinformation out there, and extrapolating from case…

Indeed, my understanding of the scientific consensus is that a healthy vegan or vegetarian diet is perfectly possible. However the question is what happens when such a diet is forced on a large fraction of some population, either because meat becomes too expensive, or because plant-based alterantives become much cheaper. Are most people who can scarecely afford good nutritious food right now going to be able to maintain a healthy diet when they have even fewer alternatives than currently?

Edit: just to clarify in case I'm misunderstood, I'm talking about poor people because I don't worry that I won't be able to afford to eat as much meat as I like (which isn't that much anyway- I'm Greek, so Mediterrannean diet and all that. Like, ~60% of our cuisine is vegan or vegetarian only we call it "food").

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#163

Post by zwaps » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:51 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #112

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world. Malnutrition is also a problem in the world. Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem.

>> Malnutrition from people eating fake meat? So far, not a problem. Because there aren't that many. For people eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, keeping well-fed is a real concern and not everyone is pulling it off. For example, the following article is about infant nutrition but some of its comments apply to adults: Vegetarian diets in childhood and adolescence : Position paper of the nutrition committee, German S…

B12 and vegan supply of omega 3 fat is still a concern, especially for children and infants.

For example, if you use plant sources for your fat supply of DHA, you'd have to ingest enough ALA to make most people sick. So supplements are necessary for health, especially in children (vegan algae based supplements do exist).

Another question is soy reliance. Last I checked, we can reasonably assume that a "normal" amount of soy in a diet is a non issue. However, results during pregnancy and childhood are apparently lacking, and studies in rats show potential problems [1].

"Further investigation is needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn. In the meantime, caution would suggest that perinatal phyto-oestrogen exposure, such as that found in infants feeding on soy-based formula, should be avoided." [2]

Just to be clear here: I am a vegetarian. However, I never went full vegan because I think it does require a very mindful and conscious handling of nutrition - and a lot more research [3]

By extension, I do not think it is appropriate as a recommendation for the general public at this stage.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11524239/

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19919579/

[3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16234205/

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#164

Post by henrikschroder » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #143

A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not. I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime An…

> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods.

I think you are completely wrong.

People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food.

If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry).

And that is exactly what this new generation of plant-based alternatives are focusing on, and given their popularity compared to earlier attempts, I think they're on the right track.

Quick question: Are you yourself a vegetarian or vegan?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#165

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #150

dragonwriter wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of very healthy meat-avoiding people in the world Yes, but they don't tend to eat much in the way of highly-processed meat simulants crafted from plants.

Because they’re new and expensive? And surely that means “sample size small so consequence unstudied” rather than “this stuff is bad to eat”?

Sure, what I'm saying that it also doesn't mean “the existence of health vegetarians is testament to the healthiness of veggie-‘meat’.”

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#166

Post by ben_w » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

orange_tee wrote: post #78

maximente wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you wrote: > Malnutrition is also an externality. a poster addressed that, and now you have 4 more questions, none related to nutrition - and, hilariously, prefaced by the common but ridiculous "the question is" (implying there's one) rhetorical device. this style of dialog is really tiring.

All the questions are related. I am aware that some people can make it work, but if you remove cheap meat, who do you affect? Poor people. My question is, can poor people also eat a plant based diet with minimal malnutrition risk? All the questions are in reference to that. All I see about plant based diets say the same shit without answering the though questions. They always say, "it's possible to be a health vegan…

It’s very easy to eat healthily and cheaply on a vegetarian or vegan diet. In the UK I used Quorn or lentils as a major protein in a lot of my cooking, now I’m in Berlin I’m alternating between soy chunks, seitan (both of which I have to flavour myself), lentils, tofu, four types of preprepared tinned beans, soy milk, and cheese.

Most of these options have cheap subtypes. The most expensive part of my cooking is the fancy stuff that isn’t strictly necessary, like fresh basil or pre-made pastry, and even those are not hugely expensive.

> The impression I get from that message is that it is far easier to be healthy if you don't avoid meat. You don't have to watch your nutrition much.

The obesity crisis in the developed world, combined with the low rate of no-meat diets, rather contradicts that.

> You just have to use common sense.

How do you define “common sense” such that this sentence differentiates between the effectiveness of meat and non-meat diets?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#167

Post by bearbawl » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

Falling3 wrote: post #145

bearbawl wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to satisfy the growing in a way that is not damaging to the environment. And that’s leaving aside any questions of ethics themselves.

Sorry, I'm not following what you were trying to do there. Are you trying to bring this back around to human population growth?

Exactly. I think we’re way too much and this is the part that is not sustainable.

Unfortunately it’s apparently way more trendy to become vegan than to say we’re simply too much.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#168

Post by tonyarkles » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #90

hannob wrote: post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

>> Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. Are we going to have people paying for the "externalities" of all the products they consume? For example, the people who buy a new phone every year or half (this habit causes a significant amount of pollution, so-called "e-waste"). The people who drive their car everywhere. The people who fly a few t…

I’m on my phone at the moment and can’t break down that list line-by-line, but in Canada you already do pay surcharges for many (not all) of those things. E-waste is nominally priced at the cost of recycling for various device types; electricity, natural gas, and gasoline, and aviation all have a (not insignificant!) carbon tax associated with them.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#169

Post by markdown » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #135

danShumway wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we ignore externalities and pollution costs, just stop outright subsidizing animal meat production so much. The reason meat is so cheap is because our government puts a lot of effort and money into making it cheap. I don't know why more people aren't trying to sell this to the "free market" crowd as government overreach. The reality right now is that plant-based protein is gaining popularity despite the marke…

Have you considered why we do this? How would our society be different if only well-to-do people could eat meat regularly? Would a regular guy be content with wealthy people eating steaks while jet-setting around the globe because of climate change? I think a populist uprising would occur almost immediately and we’d see heads on pikes with their decapitated mouths stuffed with cabbage for all to see. It would be supe…

This is nonsense. People elsewhere in the world pay 50% to 100% more than what Americans pay for beef.

Removing some subsidies and making beef slightly more expensive would save money and people would just eat beef one day less/week.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#170

Post by zionic » Sat, Feb 06, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

Jkvngt wrote: post #157

I know it's maybe not a very sophisticated position to take in the current year, but I will not eat the fake meat, I will not eat the bugs, I will not live in a pod, I will not own nothing.

I’m with you on everything but the cultured meat. If it’s real cells grown in an environment with no antibiotics or hormones that’s a huge win over growing an entire animal that stands in its own crap all day and is pumped full of growth chemicals and antibiotics so it doesn’t die.

I’d love to buy my own self contained steak 3D printer for $10k