NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#511

Post by timr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:23 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #483

timr wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding "cases". I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you're talking about. > Why is this so hard for people to understand? I understand your argument, but I disagree with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and person…

> Some do not. This one does. I am sure you believe what you are saying, and I am also not doubting that you have some education on the topic, but I have to disagree. Take for example, this study [1] demonstrating significant loss of grey matter in the brain for COVID patients, both hospitalized and non-hospitalized. As our understanding of virology evolves it is becoming more and more clear that the notion of epheme…

> I am sure you believe what you are saying, and I am also not doubting that you have some education on the topic, but I have to disagree.

Reasonable people can disagree on questions like this. But you came out of the gate insisting that I "didn't understand", which isn't true.

I understand, I just disagree that this is a disproportionate threat to our society that requires disproportionate response.

> Take for example, this study [1] demonstrating significant loss of grey matter in the brain for COVID patients, both hospitalized and non-hospitalized.

FWIW, that study is terrible. It is a statistical fishing expedition, is improperly controlled (i.e. are the changes due to Covid, or something else? You can't tell!), and the whole field of "looking at MRI for reductions in gray matter" is littered with spurious findings. Here's a comment where I go into this in much greater detail:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27927568

> As our understanding of virology evolves it is becoming more and more clear that the notion of ephemeral infections is just flat out incorrect.

It's not "flat out incorrect"...as I said before, we know that post-viral syndromes are real. This is not new information.

Having a cough or shortness of breath (by FAR the most common "long covid" symptoms) after a infection are no more an indication that the virus is lingering in your body, than leg pain after a cast is removed is an indication that you continue to have a broken leg. It takes time to heal.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#512

Post by clukic » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #490

clukic wrote: post #197

Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go…

No, you are bringing up extreme examples. Other vaccines: > It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. >Measles vaccines became available in 1963. If you got the standard two doses of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine after 1967, you should be protected against the measles for life. >Sever…

You can't catch polio twice. And chicken pox is pretty similar to covid actually. It has a similar R value, and adults who catch it can be hospitalized, but for children it's usually not as serious. And once you've had chicken pox you have strong immunity, although you can still get some of the symptoms if exposed.

As for comparing restaurant and school. Schools are publicly funded and mandated by the state. No one has to go to a restaurant.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#513

Post by lc9er » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

Alupis wrote: post #367

mcguire wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. " That would be false. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/immunization.asp which points to https://www.shotsforschool.org/child-care/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/7th-grade/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ And then there's https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-b-chapter-...

Your children don't need to go to a public school, or daycare. You can home school if you're so opposed to these things. What alternative do I have for going to the beach - and outdoor space? What alternative does the private gym owner/operator have? These steps are not the same as your examples.

> Your children don't need to go to a public school

You’ve got this part backwards, if I’m reading this correctly. You must adhere to public health mandates to send a child to public school. If you choose not to abide, then you can opt to send your kid to a private school.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#514

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #447

jrockway wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of things will health checks be used for in the future? Once Covid is gone, I don't think people will really care about your health information beyond entities that already care (health insurance providers denying coverage because of preexisting conditions, etc.) Certainly, The Mets won't care if you got your flu shot this year, and your local bar probably won't care that you didn't get your annual physical…

> Once Covid is gone It will never be completely gone though, like terrorism.

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#515

Post by nradov » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #150

tracedddd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. The world has a nasty trend of using crises to erode privacy and we collectively never recover - what was sold as temporary becomes permanent, endlessly extended and expanded. I’m not an antivaxer. The vaccine works and I believe it’s really safe. I’m vaccinated. Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vacc…

What sort of things will health checks be used for in the future? Once Covid is gone, I don't think people will really care about your health information beyond entities that already care (health insurance providers denying coverage because of preexisting conditions, etc.) Certainly, The Mets won't care if you got your flu shot this year, and your local bar probably won't care that you didn't get your annual physical…

You're exaggerating. COVID-19 is a serious public health problem that we need to address, but in no way an existential crisis. CDC data shows an overall 99.6% survival rate, with the vast majority of deaths being elderly people with serious co-morbid conditions.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...

Due to privacy concerns I certainly won't be sharing my health information with random businesses.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#516

Post by dataflow » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

schmichael wrote: post #504

dataflow wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part that irks me about a vaccine mandate is it being imposed before FDA approval. The FDA isn't confident enough to approve the vaccine yet, yet other parts of the government are (effectively) saying they know better than the FDA? Is it really surprising that people hesitate when they see this? Isn't it kind of alarming to hear a government say, hey, our own scientists haven't approved this, but we want to injec…

The FDA did approve the vaccines under an emergency use authorization. Hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated without significant deviation from expected outcomes. What do you expect final FDA approval to accomplish?

Are you saying FDA approval is a meaningless thing? If so then why not get rid of that step and cut some red tape? If not then there's your answer.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#517

Post by tajustice2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

ok123456 wrote: post #416

tajustice wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID laws are inherently racist, and have been leveraged by white supremacists for decades to keep POC from enjoying the rights and privileges they're guaranteed under the law. Businesses requiring vaccination IDs are de facto discriminating against POCs and other minorities because POCs and minorities are less likely to have ID, and less likely to be vaccinated.

The coronavirus doesn't discriminate. Edit: Can't reply to the child since it's dead, but for the record, I got my covid vaccinations at an AME church (i.e., black) back in April. Edit 2: >Anecdotal evidence is always useful for bigotry. I went to an AME church (i.e., black) back in April and the church was denied vaccines. No you didn't. > The statistical facts are clear: POCs are much less likely to have access to…

>I got my covid vaccinations at an AME church (i.e., black) back in April.

No you didn't.

Here are the facts: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-fewer-black-america...

https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#518

Post by throwawayswede » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #405

timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, No. No. No. No. No. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away. In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness. This isn't a point of question, it's a known FACT that is all too often left out of th…

> No. No. No. No. No.

This kind of attitude turns people away from wanting to engage with you, even if your idea has merit.

> There's absolutely no reason to say things like "hysterical fixation on cases". Bringing cases down means LESS LIVES LOST and less HEALTH lost.

It's naive to think that some people want more lives lost. That's the goal of everyone. In the same way, you're asking people to understand your perspective, try to keep an open mind, and understand the perspective of others. Even if you're correct, the only way to help is to understand the root of why some people are hesitant.

I'm obviously pro vaccines (in general) and are vaccinated for covid, but I'm also pro informed decision making, which from my perspective is very lacking (in some contexts) and very simplistic (summarized into TikTok-style videos and "cute" guitar songs) in others. There is of course valuable information out there but it's very difficult to find and is mostly lost in the ocean of influencer-driven media, turning science into MTV style top 10 countdowns. I happen to very rarely watch TV or news related to Covid from any source other than Sweden's official organizations, and I'm very happy with their information. I also noticed that it's very different in cadence from what I usually read people trying to say anywhere [1] (contrary to generic Swedish media for example, which follows the American example mostly). I believe this is one of the main reasons we have 40% fully vaccinated and ~60% with at least one shot). And there's no noticeable animosity or friction between vaccinated or unvaccinated people. There are also very few masks going around (mostly older people and 1 out of 100 young people I see).

From what I understand, scientists doing the research are working very hard on this, and they are still not 100% clear on all the details. It's naive to dismiss side-effects no matter how rare they are, and even more dangerous to dismiss fears of people. When you say "everyone must get vaccinated whether they understand or not" you're not aiding those people who are hesitant (regardless of why). Just the other day I watched a supercut of different "officials" some saying people can "top-off" with a second jab from another kind of vaccine while others saying that it's extremely wrong to do so. Similar to how the whole mask thing changed over time (and even now again with the new variants). This is all to say that difference of opinion and understanding is not only expected, but it's inevitable. You can't eliminate it, you can only face it and discuss it openly.

1: https://www.1177.se/Stockholm/sjukdomar--besvar/lungor-och-l...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#519

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

tehwebguy wrote: post #384

mrfusion wrote: post #230

A bit off topic but you know what’s really jarring for me? For the past ten years I’ve agreed with the majority on hacker news on almost every issue. Software patents, voting rights, who knows what else. Everyone seemed to just find the right answer and it made sense. Then all of a sudden I’m in tiny minority because I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies. It really feels like a t…

> I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies You still can, with limited exceptions: * Kids need to be vaccinated against ~9 ailments before they attend school (seems mandatory but homeschool is an option in every state) * Adults need to be vaccinated against one before they patronize indoor restaurants, entertainment venues and gyms (completely optional activities and only in the den…

> Adults need to be vaccinated against one before they patronize indoor restaurants, entertainment venues and gyms (completely optional activities and only in the densest city in the US, probably some others will follow)

Also, adults that want to attend college classes on campus need to provide schools with proof of vaccination for about a half-dozen diseases. This was the case 20+ years ago, and it's still the case today.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#520

Post by fennecfoxen » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #355

timr wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have never required anything like this to go to a restaurant . Or the gym. Or the beach. This is a huge new step. Pointing out that children must be vaccinated against viruses that disproportionately harm children in order to participate in public education is true, but irrelevant to the question. Pointing out that we require certain vaccinations of immigrants is true, but irrelevant to the question. (Not for noth…

> We have never required anything like this to go to a restaurant . Or the gym. Or the beach. This is a huge new step. Indeed, instead there used to be mandatory, involuntary quarantine enforcement, sometimes (typhus, polio) on a per-household basis with the enforcement notice posted prominently on the front door. That restricted not only restaurants and beach visits but all visits of any kind.

Notably, the quarantine enforcement you describe were much more stringent requirements, levied against specific people who were believed to be infected or at elevated risk of infection (such as arrivals from overseas), never as a standing order issued against the population of the state's residents. Moreover, the quarantine laws which authorize this sort of thing in New York City demand due-process protections, such that those who are quarantined must receive notice that they are entitled to judicial review of the quarantine order.