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Own-goal football (2022)

generalist.academy

51–60 of 185 posts

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#51
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always somewhat nonplussing (grammer?) when people say they are unclear on it. If you are past the last defender, on the opposing side of the field, when the ball is kicked to you, offsides. It’s hard to get right though, which is different. Having both ref’d and played soccer, you absolutely need lineman watching the field closely.

I was being a bit sarcastic. Obviously the refs know the rules. But it's fairly easy to get a bit wrong at the margins. I've reffed ice hockey by comparison and, while you may miss a call here and there it's pretty clear at least if you look at a slo-mo replay whether a call was right or not based on puck and skates position.

Being somewhat familiar with ice hockey cause my kid plays, and having read the description of this offsides, ice hockey is much easier because you check position of the skaters relative to the line at the same time as the puck crosses the line. My kid's league has instant offsides, so you don't have to keep track of potential offsides, but you do have to allow otherwise offsides if the defenders put the puck in.

Under IFAB law, you have to keep track of where the potentially offside player relative to other players is at the time that the ball is kicked elsewhere, which means having eyes focused in more than one place at once. Not an easy job.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#52
post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

The meta-game of game design: how do you design a game whose mechanics lead to incentives that align with your intentions is a fascinating area. It also has deep connections to policy design in politics. In the political arena, it gets so much more complex because you have disagreement on intentions and people deliberately obfuscating their intentions. So you've got people arguing over legislation who are trying to a…

For games at least, attempting to be highly prescriptive in the rules risks strangling the game. Basketball was designed to be played without dribbling. By the time players started single-handed dribbling it was pretty clear what's the more interesting, exciting game to watch and play

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#53

Stuff like this is why I fell in love with soccer. It didn't come quickly. I was not very engaged with youth soccer as a kid although looking back it was one of very few "safe spaces" for me as a kid where being bullied wasn't a problem. I came to see youth soccer as part of declining social mobility in the U.S. If you were playing little league maybe you could dream of being Babe Ruth but there just wasn't any ladde…

Relegation and promotion are just such good systems that all sports should have them

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#54
post #38
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you'd be offside if your own team member passed you the ball while you were between the player and their goal. You wouldn't be offside if the other team had the ball. Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net. Offside stops this from happening by making sure that the receiving p…

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different with…

At least one forward would hang close to the opponent's goalkeeper, guarded by a defender. Teams would be spread in length over the pitch. There will probably be many special strategies. Maybe everybody would be in the box when the other goalkeeper kicks the ball. That's prevented by offside now. BTW offside works only in the opponent's half of the pitch.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#55
post #38
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you'd be offside if your own team member passed you the ball while you were between the player and their goal. You wouldn't be offside if the other team had the ball. Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net. Offside stops this from happening by making sure that the receiving p…

> Football would be a nightmare if players were hanging out in the other team's box, waiting for the ball to be hoofed upfield to them so they could tap it into the back of the net this is the commonly-held wisdom on offside, but I’m a little sceptical of it. 7-a-side, 5-a-side and futsal manage just fine without the offside rule (admittedly on smaller pitches). I suspect that 11-a-side would just look different with…

It wouldn't be a broken game in that it'd still function, but I can't imagine it'd be an enjoyable one to watch.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#56
post #7

Sports is one of the most fascinating and underexplored examples of Goodhart's law (collapsing correlation between the metric and a goal). One of the most widely known examples of this is a London 2012 badminton scandal, when tournament design led to misaligned incentives for teams (it was beneficial for them to lose a game, to meet with less formidable opponent known beforehand). But there are dozens of such cases a…

The game clock is one of the more common rules that tends to warp gameplay in this way, with teams that are ahead trying to avoid play and run out the clock rather than continue to engage in the contest. The other team, meanwhile, resorts to increasingly desperate tactics like pulling the goalie, intentionally committing fouls, or laterals and trying for the onside kick.

Related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elam_Ending

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#57
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interfering with the ball is sufficient to be called for off-side - you need to be in active play, but you can do that when your team doesn't have possession.

What you are describing would make attacking the keeper pointless for example when they dropped the ball from hand for a kickoff, cause that would be offside which is not true. By your description Mandzukic's WC final goal should be offside https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzN-ahqULc4

Ball is rolling towards the goal - if the attacking player touches it, it will be offsides: A player in an offside position has entered active play by "interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate".

Goalkeeper makes a save, since the ball is rolling towards the goal. If the attacking player touches it, it will be offsides: A player in an offside position has entered active play by "challenging an opponent for the ball" or "gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has [...] been deliberately saved by any opponent".

The goalkeeper deliberately plays the ball. Immediately afterwards, the attacking player receives the ball played by the goalkeeper - this is not offsides, since "a player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent."

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules...

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#58
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for those wondering why 3-0, it's based on tournament points scoring. you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, a point for each goal (maximum of 3 points for goals) per game, and an additional point for the shutout. so, each game in tournament scoring is worth 7 points. after all of those points are added, goal differentials can come into consideration for tie breakers.

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it . If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following…

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored.

Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties

As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniability way of saying "be generous with penalties".

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#59
post #2

> Football has a lot of strange rules – like Ted Lasso, I still don’t understand exactly how the offside rule works. Spoiler alert, he did figure it out in the end

After years of watching my kids, I am not sure the refs always know what is offside either. Growing up I always made fun of soccer and considered it a game for uncircumcised foreigners, but I have to like it now because my kids play. The worst thing about soccer is that no one, outside the ref, really knows how much time is left in the game. That and flopping in the box to get penalty shots.

> The worst thing about soccer is that no one, outside the ref, really knows how much time is left in the game

This is also kind of a feature. Different kind of suspense. I don't mind it.

> That and flopping in the box to get penalty shots.

I don't like diving, but I can understand it to some extent. The ref misses a lot of the illegal contact.

Grabbing, pushing, pretty much anything you do with your hands to manipulate another player is illegal contact. Shoulder contact is mostly fine and the generally allowed strength and positioning play.

If you have someone doing subtle tactical fouls in the box (very common). The ref will probably miss it because it's hard to see the finer technical contact at 30-40 yards away. Then there's the safety issue. If you're a forward and you get plowed by a defender, it can be quite dangerous. There tends to be a size mismatch favoring the defender.

So exaggerating contact to make sure the ref is aware that it's occurred is a counter to potential defender gamesmanship, or worse.

I've never been able to do it, I keep my feet at even egregious fouls (really good balance) and consequently, despite probably hundreds of fouls in the box, I never get awarded penalties.

But... I still retain a bit of appreciation for the divers as I know what defenders would be like if the threat of it wasn't there.

Another common problem is the huge license keepers are granted with physical contact.

Re: Own-goal football (2022)

#60
post #2

> Football has a lot of strange rules – like Ted Lasso, I still don’t understand exactly how the offside rule works. Spoiler alert, he did figure it out in the end

The offside rule gets far more attention than it deserves and in my opinion it's happened due to the increased popularity and quality of live televised football over the last ~30 years.

To me the best place to start is to understand what the rule is trying to accomplish. It's designed to discourage a player hanging out by their opponents goal the entire game in the hopes that somehow their team can somehow get the ball to them and they'll have only the goalkeeper to beat (or whatever poor defender was tasked with tracking them) - "poaching" we'd call it in 5 or 7-aside games where there is no offside rule.

How do you do that? Well you just try to make a rule that says "if you're inside your opponents half your teammates can't pass you the ball unless there's at least two players between you and the opponents goal line".

It only becomes tricky to explain or understand because:

- it is encoded within the laws of the game in a very specific way that's a little tricky to digest in its entirety

- most people know some bits of it but only half-remember little details and try to explain all of that at once and confuse both themselves and the person they're explaining it to

- some people think that the ball needs to be passed in a given direction, leading to (rare) situations where they're unable to explain an offside call or to incorrectly describe it as wrong

- some try to explain it in terms of one attacking player being beyond one defender, forgetting that it's actually two players on the defending side, one of whom is usually-but-not-always the goalkeeper

- people try to include exceptions when they explain it (you can't be offside from a throw-in, for example)

- local football associations try to tweak it to be more fair or to appease fans (but inevitably make it more complex and piss off fans). They might change it so you're offside even if you didn't personally receive the ball for example.

- it is often explained to or by someone who has had a couple of beers and is attempting to demonstrate it by moving pint glasses or beermats around on a pub table

- if you want to be technically correct, it's not just "is a player in an offside position" it is "is any part of an attacking player's body that is allowed to play the ball offside" (i.e. you can technically be offside of your head, legs, chest, ass are offside .. but if it's only part of your arm that's in a given position you're not offside)

- etc

Each added detail or half-remembered corner-case can make any explanation more convoluted and hard to understand.

But for 99% of situations the sentence "if you're inside your opponents half your teammates can't pass you the ball unless there's at least two players between you and the opponents goal line" will suffice.

If you want to simplify it as "... at least one defender ..." that's fine in most cases. A player on the attack who is trying to avoid being offside will just look out for the last defender, assuming the goalkeeper will be stood near their goal. A player who is attacking will play the ball assuming their teammates were onside unless they're obviously not. A player who is defending will keep an eye on the furthest-back defender - there will be a loud member of the defense coordinating this, telling them to move up or down the field.

If you want to think about it in more detail, remember what parts of the body the attacker is allowed to touch the ball with.

If you're watching a match in person, you likely won't be in a position to make call it in any more detail than that anyway.

If you're watching on TV the commentators will break an offside call down in excruciating detail for you and show you lots of stupid graphics and slow-mo replays.

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