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Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

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Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#491

Post by ineedasername »

MrRadar wrote: post #443
ineedasername wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because my LTV was really high. Yep, I think this is exactly how things work. My household buys pretty much anything it can from Amazon unless it's more expensive than we can get elsewhere because our Amazon credit cards automatically give a 5% discount (cash back). Since we pay our balance every month this is basically like having 5% more income proportional to the amount spent on Amazon** We never have a problem de…

If you're looking for an alternative, Target's store card also gives you 5% off and it is applied instantly at the time of purchase (you don't have to "redeem" the refund later or anything).

We actually do use them for some things, especially some low cost items Amazon doesn't sell directly and resellers mark up significantly because that's the only way they can make money on a $3 bottle of shampoo or whatever it is. Also for dry goods, Target often has things Amazon doesn't have. The only downside is they don't have free shipping unless you hit $35, so we try yo save up items until we have enough to hit that mark.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#492

Post by birdyrooster »

an_opabinia wrote: post #378
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

So what you are saying is instead of getting emotional, we should get even by reverse engineering the LTV algorithm and “lose” packages as often is still profitable for Amazon so we can buy things at near cost from them?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#493

Post by franga2000 »

cortesoft wrote: post #440
franga2000 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like how else could it work? They investigate everything, spending more money than the cost of the refund? Is anyone actually arguing for fewer "easy refunds" and more investigation? I though the point was that given the fact that most of their refunds are handled algorithmically, they have plenty of time to handle the rest of the refunds quickly and with care. If I don't get my order, I want my money back. If the…

This assumes that by investigating you will determine the truth. Often times, even if they spent a ton of time investigating, they aren’t going to be able to determine who was at fault.

Idk, if the tracking doesn't say "picked up by recipient", a refund should be given no questions asked. It's then up to the seller and shipping company to figure out who screwed up amongst themselves.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#494

Post by Natsu »

WalterBright wrote: post #124
Natsu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly get what I order, but I don't order much in the way of electronics or things where scams are common, though I did have to be careful when ordering a simple micro SD card as there were many incredibly cheap, off-brand products that were likely to be scams. I have also seen a few deliveries with pictures that went to what was clearly the wrong address, had a box of chocolates arrive totally melted where the ic…

Well, some common sense is needed. Anything at too-good-to-be-true prices are nearly always a scam, for example. I buy about everything from Amazon, since the beginning, and have had nearly zero issues. A screw-up now and then is forgivable.

Yeah, but I can hardly blame non-technical people who don't know the prices of things and who haven't heard about the cheats that off-brand memory cards can pull. I mean, many of them advertise to the computer that they are the listed size. But... when you fill them up, it becomes clear that's a lie.

I wish Amazon could randomly test and delist some of those products or whatever. Or maybe do some random testing before listing them for sale, it's not some obscure scam after all.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#495

Post by franga2000 »

asimpletune wrote: post #458
franga2000 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about you, but where I'm from, consumer protection laws exist specifically so consumers don't have to sue in these cases. Providing a fair refund process is their legal duty, not a courtesy.

To me about how these infractions can be enforced without suing though?

You report them to the relevant regulatory body.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#496

Post by sbarre »

rantwasp wrote: post #486
wpietri wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfectly believable. The thing I really loved about Amazon is that they had their act together. But that has declined drastically over the decades; now whenever I actually have to deal with them it seems like there's a ton of internal chaos. In June 2018, I ordered a soccer magazine, "Futbol Total", for my soccer-mad nephew. It said it would arrive in 4-16 weeks, which seemed weird. I waited it out, and no magazine.…

so, at what point is legitimate to involve the Credit Card company? you don’t even need to actually do it, tell cs you will do it unless it gets here in x days. issue a chargeback and move on.

As others have also said, doing a chargeback risks Amazon closing your account permanently.

So if you're prepared to take that risk and never buy from Amazon again, sure.. go for it..

But given the centralization of vendors this can have bigger downsides than upside.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#497

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

wpietri wrote: post #428
ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

Perfectly believable. The thing I really loved about Amazon is that they had their act together. But that has declined drastically over the decades; now whenever I actually have to deal with them it seems like there's a ton of internal chaos. In June 2018, I ordered a soccer magazine, "Futbol Total", for my soccer-mad nephew. It said it would arrive in 4-16 weeks, which seemed weird. I waited it out, and no magazine.…

> The thing I really loved about Amazon is that they had their act together. But that has declined drastically over the decades

This seems to be a problem for all big platforms. When they’re small enough to not change the ecosystem, they can do what they do well. Eg amazon ships more conveniently and google returns better results and uber is less scammy. Then they get massive and become a viable,better understood target for fraud/manipulation, and suddenly their offering begins to suck. It’s frustrating as a consumer.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#498

Post by [deleted] »

mlyle wrote: post #483
an_opabinia wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

"LTV model of 'justice' here is, in my opinion, a lot lot better" Sure, it is, when you're rich. If you're some poor bastard who's scrimped up a whole lot of money to buy an expensive item, and Amazon figures you won't spend much money in the future, you get ripped off. There's a couple of externalities you've left out, too, because your LTV doesn't predict them: * Reputational costs * Risk of adverse legal outcomes,…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#499

Post by macintux »

miracle2k wrote: post #478
chongli wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that it shouldn’t be the aggrieved consumer filing the lawsuit, it should be the powerful regulator with potential fines tied to a percentage of company revenue.

I don't see regulation being the issue here. The law will oblige either of the two sides to carry the burden of proof. Either Amazon has to proof the package was delivered, or the customer has to proof it wasn't. If the other sides does not accept the proof received, it has to sue.

You can't prove a negative. There's effectively no way for a customer to prove a package wasn't delivered.

Update: I should be clear, the shipper can prove it. The customer themselves can't without the shipper's acquiescence.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#500

Post by adventured »

eeegnu wrote: post #488
TacticalCoder wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bad ones (pathological ones) - we just try to get rid of them ASAP and no refunds. A customer "not buying much" is not "bad". If you accept his money for cheap stuff, he is your customer. There's a difference between an honest customer who usually doesn't buy much and then buys something expensive and is getting sadly scammed and a customer trying to rob you. If you accept the customer for cheap stuff but refuse to…

> If you accept the customer for cheap stuff but refuse to help him when he gets scammed on an expensive item, you are the bad, pathological, person/business. For every refund system you will unfortunately get people who attempt to game that system. They'll buy many negligible cost items without issue, then a single high cost item that they'll claim never arrived hoping they've outsmarted the store or algorithm. Thes…

A particularly difficult con to detect and account for.

On eBay fraudsters buy large quantities of eg $1 seed packs, to build up artificial account ratings. Then they try to steal expensive things (didn't arrive, wasn't in the box, arrived broken, etc), and eBay shields the accounts heavily because they favor buyers to an extreme. All the thief has to do is be disciplined about it, buy $40-$50 of cheap items for positive feedback, then go after a $300-$500 item. Sellers can't even leave negative feedback on eBay, which further cuts off a mechanism for at least warning other sellers of a running con (sellers sometimes leave the negative language in the neutral/positive feeback segment instead, which rather points out the absurdity of eBay's broken system).

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