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How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

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Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#451

Post by kilburn »

StavrosK wrote: post #434
kilburn wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they are. The pro-independence movement didn't really take off until the Spanish Constitutional Court thwarted 17 articles and redacted 27 more from the latest "Catalan constitution" (Estatut). A "constitution" which had been approved by the Catalan Parliament, the Spanish Parliament and the Catalan citizens themselves in a referendum (in that order). Likewise, the latest Spanish education law (LOMCE) includes an…

Couldn't you make the same point for any region? I'm free to do whatever I want to my house, as long as my district is fine with it. My district is free to do whatever they want, as long as the country is fine with it. The country is free to do what they want, as long as the EU is fine with it. And so on. It's the cost of living with other people, and there are benefits to that too.

The United Nations have sanctioned the self-determination right [1]. Quoting wikipedia:

> It [the self-determination right] states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.

Hence, your argument breaks down at some point. The big issue is how to define that point, because the right definition does not include qualifying criteria for what constitutes "people" and what doesn't.

Based on their strong national identity, pro-separatists in Catalonia consider that they have this right. There are many issues and arguments supporting both sides (although most state-nations are against any kind of wide applicability of the self-determination right for obvious reasons).

In any case, nobody, neither in Catalonia nor elsewhere advocates for that right for your family, your district, etc. because you don't have a national sentiment, you don't feel like a separate ethnic and so on.

We can discuss whether Catalans constitute an ethnicity separate from the Spaniards or not, whether the self-determination right applies in this case or not, and so on... but please don't use the "If Catalans can, my family should also be able too" because it is just derailing the conversation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#452

Post by iagovar »

nsnick wrote: post #436
amelius wrote: post #112

As an outsider, it's strange that nobody here seems to question whether the referendum really makes sense. Forgetting about Catalonia for a moment, isn't it fundamentally amoral that a part of the country where prosperity has (by mere chance) concentrated suddenly wants to split off? Isn't this taking wealth-inequality to the next level? Of course the people in a prosperous part of the country want to split off. Abso…

So why does Spain deserve Catalonia's money any more than any other country? Why shouldn't France get it or a poor African country?

Because Catalonia was granted monopolies and a lot of economical favours by law in the last centuries, eve when it was detrimental for other regions, like it was with the textile industry, car manufacturing and so on.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#453

Post by zo1 »

faragon wrote: post #431
lottin wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war was between European powers and had many ramifications in different places. For Catalonia the net result was that it lost its political institutions and became a province in a centralised state.

Also, became a much richer region, because after the centralization got access to world-wide trade because of the Spanish Empire.

And with that definition/benefit you've stated, how is that different to colonialism?

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#455

Post by RobertoG »

michigan_j_frog wrote: post #275
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but you don't see signs demanding "democracy" or secession (except perhaps in Texas, and not really much there either). That is, while there are confederate flags, there isn't a active, ongoing independence movement in the US south.

But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S..

"But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S.."

I'm not sure what you mean by that but I would like to know.

Suppose that 100% of Texas wanted secession (it's just an example), what the federal government would do?

Keep a permanent occupation force like in Iraq or something like that?

It would be difficult keep talking about democracy with a straight face.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#456

Post by spaniard89277 »

contravariant wrote: post #272
pvaldes wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valencia is also in the same line, but there is a dirty secret that nobody wants to hear and much less admit. Franco, being the same horrible dictator that killed a lot of innocent people, favoured actively Catalonia's economy over other provinces, for decades. Is true that he discouraged them to speak in Catalonian language, but also discouraged people to speak in Galician language (and Franco was born in Galicia).…

Valencia was one of the places I was hinting at (although I suppose they removed the river that originally made it a convenient place for a port). Anyway, I wasn't completely aware of that part of the history, thanks. That said I don't quite agree that Catalonia wasn't oppressed. I'm not qualified to say which regions were oppressed the most, but economic prosperity isn't the opposite of oppression. If anything the r…

Other regions were oppressed AND kept down economically. There was even innovators, like Barreiros, a galician-born car and truck manufacturing brand that was cut off from growing more because of SEAT, that had quite a big impact in Catalonia, in terms of capital flows, jobs etc.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#457

Post by faragon »

zo1 wrote: post #453
faragon wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, became a much richer region, because after the centralization got access to world-wide trade because of the Spanish Empire.

And with that definition/benefit you've stated, how is that different to colonialism?

Catalans were doing colonialism within the Spanish Empire. I.e. doing the colonialism, not suffering it.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#458

Post by euyyn »

elecbit wrote: post #420
euyyn wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. It's easier to separate Communists from non-Communists, because each of us gets to vote to only one party, than Catalans from non-Catalans. And even though Communists are a clear minority in Spain, you'd be hard pressed to find one that equates "not having a majority in Congress" with "being victims of a tyranny". If your family lived under the dic…

The problem here is that all the inheritants of the Franco dictatorship and their mentailty are still in the power, thanks to the Spanish transition in which the Dictator passed the power to the King. Then promoted a bi-party politics where the minorities would never be able to change anything. It is not fair and Catalonia is fighting (again) to change it.

After Franco, Spain has been governed for 6 years by centrists, 21 years by socialists, and 14 years by the PP.

The fantasy of "the Transición didn't take the francoists off the power" would need the likes of Felipe Gonzalez be "mentally francoist". It's no more than a feel-good fantasy.

The fact that you need to convince the majority to change something, while individuals are constitutionally protected, is really how democracies work. If anything, nationalist minorities have wielded much more power in the Spanish Congress than other minorities with more voters, due to quirks of our electoral law.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#459

Post by euyyn »

elecbit wrote: post #414
euyyn wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yeah. And a while ago a president pardoned a guy from the other party that had been sentenced to 10 years in prison for kidnapping. I think there's still a stretch from "there are corrupt politicians and the monarchy and president have a lot of undue influence over the judiciary" to "Catalans don't have freedom of expressions or are oppressed".

"Catalans don't have freedom of expressions or are oppressed" -> Catalans don't have the right to express themselves about independence? Is this taboo?

Independentist Catalans have been freely expressing themselves nonstop for many years, and will continue to enjoy that freedom like everybody else.

Re: How the Catalan government uses IPFS to sidestep Spain's legal block

#460

Post by kilburn »

pvaldes wrote: post #421
elecbit wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, let us Catalans be stupid and go to extintion ourselves. We will probably be fine. If you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us instead of forbid us everything. I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one.

> if you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us Yeah, the tiresome "seduce us (with mo' fresh money)" argument again. I have a better idea, why you don't try to seduce me instead to call me thief (Spain stole us) and abuser (Spain oppress us and do not let us be free) and hit me all the time with a new surrealist occurrence (don't buy spanish products, here are a list of the evil companies that you must avoid if yo…

> In the last 60 years, you have been offered a lot of gifs and privileges (that by the way, I don't enjoy), and is never enough.

Name three "gifts/privileges" that Catalonia has been given/granted and you don't enjoy, please.

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