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Voat Is Shutting Down

voat.co

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Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#441

Post by starfallg »

patcon wrote: post #246
intended wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those days ended fast. I saw it happen. On my forum, that very question was asked, and it wasn’t a philosophical debate. It was an operational one - how do we balance free speech ideals vs actual forum evidence. The framework that fits the evidence and the ideals was 1) we want a market place of ideas to function 2) there is content that easily dominates and sidelines all other ideas. 3) there are Maliciously enginee…

> The underlying nexus is that our ideals on free speech do not take into account human wetware bandwidth. Really well said. I'll admit I lean on "wetware" in these convos too. Free speech perhaps breaks down in net-centric reality. Social norms that worked in a 2D plane of existence are not guaranteed to continue working when physical space constraints start to break down -- when every human agent is networked to ev…

I would say it's even more basic than that. The "marketplace of ideas" paradigm only works when there is in fact positive incentives to sustain the marketplace. In a environment where it costs next to nothing to disseminate bad information for personal gain, there is no economic mechanism to stop people from doing it.

Even if we had unlimited bandwidth, it would be wasted in such a war of attrition.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#442

Post by [deleted] »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #351
renewiltord wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the answer has to be to stop the witch hunts in the places where everybody else already is. Got to be honest, bro, I don't really care to sacrifice for "the good of society" or whatever. If you make a website where some dude is going to post anti-Semitic shit everywhere and someone else is going to have to politely explain that Jewish lizard people are not conspiring to elect a Black woman as President then sure…

> So you pick: them or me? Don't you create polarization this way?

[deleted]

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#444

Post by eska »

djs070 wrote: post #409
piokoch wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there is some middle ground between antisemitism and following what mainstream loves the a given point of time. And right now if someone dares to stick outside mainstream views this is considered hate speech, anti-XXX, etc. Can we discuss if overweight people should pay more for sits in a plane? Can we discuss if a trans male who identifies herself to be a woman should be allowed to take part in female sport…

If you search /r/unpopularopinion or /r/changemyview you’ll find plenty of examples of such topics being discussed.

I challenge you to do it. You'll instantly be shadowbanned by bots from multiple subreddits, people will actively seek out your posts and point out you're an extremist on unrelated topics (again, triggered by bots pointing you out), and people will use your post history against you in arguments unrelated to whatever you said in those posts.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#445

Post by eska »

tokamak-teapot wrote: post #360
piokoch wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there is some middle ground between antisemitism and following what mainstream loves the a given point of time. And right now if someone dares to stick outside mainstream views this is considered hate speech, anti-XXX, etc. Can we discuss if overweight people should pay more for sits in a plane? Can we discuss if a trans male who identifies herself to be a woman should be allowed to take part in female sport…

There certainly is a middle ground and I agree it should be protected. In this case, though, the posters on Voat seem to be nowhere near the middle ground and instead wading around in the cesspool of racial hatred.

He's not saying they're part of the middle ground. He said extreme communities like Voat are the result of not allowing a middle ground and pushing people to one of the extremes.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#446

Post by throwaway3699 »

ninkendo wrote: post #355
throwaway3699 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming into contact with bad ideas is the risk we take to participate in any conversation. Every time people forget, the outcome is some horrible event like genocide.

[flagged]

Maybe I should expand a bit more...

I think being scared of coming into contact with bad ideas (and tackling them) just stops people from understanding why they are bad ideas. E.g. if we create a cultural taboo long enough, I do believe people will stop caring if something is bad.

Just look at all the edgy teenagers who think Nazi stuff is funny -- because it's taboo and not talked about enough. Sure, teens will be teens.

But just enough people slip through the cracks and become radicalised in their little bubble, with nobody to deprogram them because of the taboo status. If everybody was still sharing the same space (i.e. popular platforms like reddit) then there's less polarization going on.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#447

Post by refurb »

kibwen wrote: post #232
aaron-santos wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling someone they will more conservative as they get older is a great in innoculation against that event occurring.

People don't get more conservative as they get older, they get more conservative when they have more to lose . It just so happens that as people get older they tend to get houses, families, long-term careers, etc, which tilts them towards preserving the status quo in amber so as not to threaten what they have. And if, hypothetically, a generation were to grow up and find themselves unable to afford a home of their ow…

Wrong. As they get older the Overton window shifts beneath them.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#448

Post by no-dr-onboard »

yibg wrote: post #242
intended wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those days ended fast. I saw it happen. On my forum, that very question was asked, and it wasn’t a philosophical debate. It was an operational one - how do we balance free speech ideals vs actual forum evidence. The framework that fits the evidence and the ideals was 1) we want a market place of ideas to function 2) there is content that easily dominates and sidelines all other ideas. 3) there are Maliciously enginee…

Plus there is an asymmetry here. Wild “theories” and purposefully inflammatory content is easy to post, and also easy to believe for those that align with them ideologically. Countering them, especially to a degree that can be convincing, takes a lot more work. End result, a lot more of the former and less of the latter.

The thing is, simply repeating a common tract, belief, thought, or “fact” to refute and drown out “wild theories” is just as effortless.

There is a serious logical hazard in believing that any of this is asymmetrical.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#449

Post by eska »

concordDance wrote: post #350
ngcazz wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s tiring to have to repeat that you’re proposing debating the legitimacy of the humanity of certain people as though it merited debate.

I find these types of strawman confusing. It's obvious to anyone who reads them that it doesn't even slightly relate to what anyone here has said (not letting someone participate in sporting events where they have a biological advantage is not exactly calling them pigs) but people post them anyway. Is there some sort of costly signalling of membership of some social group (woke group?) going on?

If you want to read current psychological research on this I'd suggest this paper. It explores the personality attributes of people who virtue signal and what they have to gain from it in current society, and why that wasn't the case before. The personality types are Machiavellianism, Narcissism, Psychopathy - also referred to as the dark triad.

https://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Ok-...

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#450

Post by base698 »

renewiltord wrote: post #279
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

> So the answer has to be to stop the witch hunts in the places where everybody else already is. Got to be honest, bro, I don't really care to sacrifice for "the good of society" or whatever. If you make a website where some dude is going to post anti-Semitic shit everywhere and someone else is going to have to politely explain that Jewish lizard people are not conspiring to elect a Black woman as President then sure…

I don't quite grok the ghetto analogy. The Jewish lizard people is totally absurd. There are other arguments less absurd. To know how to defend them you have to know they exist. It's bad because it's racism isn't all that effective at stamping it out.

In addition, putting all the rot in one place leads to the lizard people.

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