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Voat Is Shutting Down

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Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#351

Post by GoblinSlayer »

renewiltord wrote: post #279
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

> So the answer has to be to stop the witch hunts in the places where everybody else already is. Got to be honest, bro, I don't really care to sacrifice for "the good of society" or whatever. If you make a website where some dude is going to post anti-Semitic shit everywhere and someone else is going to have to politely explain that Jewish lizard people are not conspiring to elect a Black woman as President then sure…

> So you pick: them or me?

Don't you create polarization this way?

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#352

Post by pii »

anshumankmr wrote: post #201
nkrisc wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's extreme about any of that? Seems pretty tame.

There are a tonne of tankies on the site. Some who claim Holodomor was fake, Tianmen square was an exaggeration and the DPRK/China are heroes, Fidel Castro was a benevolent dictator and that everyone who escaped his regime was a slave owner.

?

I don't doubt someone is repeating the CCP party line on Twitter, but are you actually saying anyone is taking those accounts seriously?

Come on now, I'm on lefty Twitter, and nobody is saying Chinese flavoured capitalism is the answer.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#353

Post by concordDance »

yibg wrote: post #242
intended wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those days ended fast. I saw it happen. On my forum, that very question was asked, and it wasn’t a philosophical debate. It was an operational one - how do we balance free speech ideals vs actual forum evidence. The framework that fits the evidence and the ideals was 1) we want a market place of ideas to function 2) there is content that easily dominates and sidelines all other ideas. 3) there are Maliciously enginee…

Plus there is an asymmetry here. Wild “theories” and purposefully inflammatory content is easy to post, and also easy to believe for those that align with them ideologically. Countering them, especially to a degree that can be convincing, takes a lot more work. End result, a lot more of the former and less of the latter.

People can just go ctrl+c the response someone else made on the subject.

Bookmark links and have your list of links publicly accessible.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#354

Post by CaptArmchair »

marvin wrote: post #326
ngcazz wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s tiring to have to repeat that you’re proposing debating the legitimacy of the humanity of certain people as though it merited debate.

GP's is not claiming that overweight or transgender people are inhuman. That statement is exactly the type of extremist stance that is causing this debate in the first place. Hell, they aren't even claiming that they are in favor of the points mentioned. Just that it's a bad idea for democratic society to shut down such discussion.

The problem with those discussions is that they tend to devolve in shouting matches.

Why is that? It's because this really is about people's feelings and sentiments on those topics. And those emotions range wildly from totally supportive to indifferent to deeply threatened.

While that's all completely valid, voicing your emotions unfiltered on the public Internet in front of an audience of anonymous millions comes with plenty of caveats. It's pretty much like standing up in a crowded, public town square and ranting unfiltered about how you feel personally in no uncertain terms. Or, more insidiously, taking on an appearance of reason and rationality, trying to hide an intention of eliciting an emotional response from others that validates your own feelings.

Many people don't take issue with the topic, they take issue with your behaviour. And they will show you their disapproval.

Free speech allows you to voice whatever is on your mind, but that doesn't force others to listen to you or give you a platform. Democracy doesn't imply that any and all behaviour is to be tolerated.

In real life, such behaviour is relegated to backroom clubs, shady bars and questionable small organizations. The Internet unavoidably hosts their digital equivalent. Moreover, as you can hide behind an anonymous handle on the Internet, move between different platforms fluidly, easily find a platform between thousands that will cater to you,... all of that from the comfort of your couch, really lowers the bar further.

The danger in all of this is when all of those digitally pent up negative emotions spill over in public life and starts affecting the very underpinnings that provide security and stability to each and every member society, regardless of who they are.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#355

Post by ninkendo »

throwaway3699 wrote: post #343
jakelazaroff wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pragmatically speaking, that will happen anyway. I’m not gonna use any platform that allows me to encounter Nazis. Voilà: the debate is stopped entirely, even though the platform has done nothing to stop it. And on that topic, do we really need to debate Nazis? Like, are we so committed to the idea of moral relativism that we can’t draw some lines? Because frankly, I have zero interest in debating with anyone whether…

Coming into contact with bad ideas is the risk we take to participate in any conversation. Every time people forget, the outcome is some horrible event like genocide.

[flagged]

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#356

Post by austhrow743 »

cwhiz wrote: post #49
Sebguer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a pretty weird assertion - Voat doesn't have to worry about literally any of the scale problems Reddit does.

Reddit has usability problems by design. Reddit want to make it as obnoxious as possible to use on a mobile phone, so that you’ll download their stupid app. They also push you to login to view more content, so they can track you. Reddit is just a cesspool, and it’s by design. Absolutely nothing to do with scaling problems.

i.reddit.com works plenty fine.

The site that pushes you to the app is just for your average idiot to find. A lot of the garbage we find obnoxious is training wheels for those idiots, and they love apps for everything as well. The persistent app nag is a benefit for the target user.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#357

Post by theelous3 »

renewiltord wrote: post #279
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

> So the answer has to be to stop the witch hunts in the places where everybody else already is. Got to be honest, bro, I don't really care to sacrifice for "the good of society" or whatever. If you make a website where some dude is going to post anti-Semitic shit everywhere and someone else is going to have to politely explain that Jewish lizard people are not conspiring to elect a Black woman as President then sure…

But it's not remotely like sending your children to a bad school. It's more like living in an actual city where the streets are lined with the guy from that change my view meme:

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/steven-crowders-change-my-min...

You can just walk right past them. You are only subjected to them insofar as their existence is recognisable, but no more than you wish to engage. Personally, I'm happy to engage them more than you seem to be. We need look no further than the many accounts of ex klan members and other hate groups to see that exposure to the edges and outside of their bubbles are what causes the bubble to burst. Go and visit hyper left anarcho communist subreddits like breadtube and find endless first hand accounts of ex-redpillers in the comments saying the same. Minds are changed every day by debate on sites like reddit, as much as it's nice to play the cynic and claim otherwise.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#358

Post by 1_player »

dragonwriter wrote: post #79
1_player wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And politics have infected every single discussion. Nowadays it's cool to be partisans, decades ago a teenager talking about politics would be dismissed with a "get a hobby, nerd." It is an absolute disgrace how it's become normal. Or that mine is an unpopular opinion nowadays.

> decades ago a teenager talking about politics would be dismissed with a "get a hobby, nerd." I was a teenager three decades ago. 1. No one would ever say “get a hobby, nerd” (“get a life...”, OTOH) 2. No one would say that about teens talking about politics, which non-nerd teenagers did commonly. They would say it about talking about computer code, though. > It is an absolute disgrace how it's become normal Why? >…

> The continuous political vigilance widely acknowledged to be necessary to prevent liberal democracy from devolving into tyranny is incompatible with the political disengagement you seem to prefer, so I think would be not at all a disgrace if your opinion were unpopular.

That is if you believe that politics have infected all corners of the Internet because there's a "struggle to prevent democracy from devolving into tyranny", paraphrased from your quote.

In my opinion it is the other way around: politics are everywhere nowadays, and it's perfectly fine and encouraged that teenagers participate and radicalise further toward one side, people whose critical mind are still under development. Add a sprinkle of bipartisan politics, so it's often a matter of black and white, and the amplifying power of social media, and that's the perfect recipe towards tyranny, bigotry, entrenchment and moving further and further from the centre.

I said this on other threads and I'll repeat: until not very long ago at all, politics was a game for rich, old people. It still is, but these days you're shamed if you're not actively involved in it.

I'm from Europe, while this attitude has started to affect over here as well, it's come from the English-speaking world (two famous bipartisan democracies, which are very overrepresented on the Internet) yet people are always quick to point out "The internet/world has always been so politicised." No it wasn't, in my experience.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#359

Post by eertami »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #50
ignoranceprior wrote: post #4

Voat was founded as a neutral free-speech platform. After alt-right extremists were booted off reddit, they found a new home there. The site was bombarded by /pol/ chan culture, and after that nobody else of other political persuasions really wanted to join. Kind of like that "paradox of intolerance" meme. Free speech platforms usually end up becoming extremist platforms. I remember going on voat a couple years ago a…

> Free speech platforms usually end up being extremist platforms. ...when the popular platforms stop being free speech platforms. Reddit, in its earlier days, was never dominated by the Voat contingent. They were there, but they were far less extreme there than they were on Voat. And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place w…

> And then whenever they would post rank inaccuracies, there were clearer-minded people to point out why they were wrong, in the same place where the same people could see it.

I don't think this works on reddit either, since subreddit moderators can simply delete such comments.

Re: Voat Is Shutting Down

#360

Post by tokamak-teapot »

piokoch wrote: post #309
renewiltord wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the answer has to be to stop the witch hunts in the places where everybody else already is. Got to be honest, bro, I don't really care to sacrifice for "the good of society" or whatever. If you make a website where some dude is going to post anti-Semitic shit everywhere and someone else is going to have to politely explain that Jewish lizard people are not conspiring to elect a Black woman as President then sure…

Yes, but there is some middle ground between antisemitism and following what mainstream loves the a given point of time. And right now if someone dares to stick outside mainstream views this is considered hate speech, anti-XXX, etc. Can we discuss if overweight people should pay more for sits in a plane? Can we discuss if a trans male who identifies herself to be a woman should be allowed to take part in female sport…

There certainly is a middle ground and I agree it should be protected. In this case, though, the posters on Voat seem to be nowhere near the middle ground and instead wading around in the cesspool of racial hatred.
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