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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#421

Post by MichaelGG »

mattm wrote: post #420
MichaelGG wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're gaining a more efficient CBP, enforcing visa rules and avoiding overstays like they do now, just with higher accuracy. Now if you want to argue that visa classes are silly and the US should just let anyone come in for whatever, fine, but that's a totally different argument. And yes, it's possible that this isn't worth the gains to CBP. But the US is pretty powerful and can force quite a bit of crap on people w…

The guy that had this happen to him recently was American and working for NASA AFAIK. If catching overstays is the issue why do this to citizens?

Power grows? I'd like to know what contraband CBP expects to find on electronic devices. At any rate, they can only ask citizens to comply, not force them.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#422

Post by angry_octet »

Accacin wrote: post #385
soft_dev_person wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I pretty much decided to never travel to the US again the first time I heard you may be compelled to unlock your Facebook profile for the customs. Not because I have something particular to hide, but as a gay person in a hostile world I have learned to care about my privacy. Not a huge loss for me, not a huge loss for the US, but it accumulates.

I don't want to be one of those people who go on about the fact that they're not on Facebook, but what if they asked me for my Facebook logins and I told them I don't have any social media accounts? (I mean, bar Github if you count that as a social network).

If you are telling the truth you will be fine. But if you do have a facebook account and you lie about it you could be in trouble (it is an offence to lie to federal agents).

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#423

Post by angry_octet »

adekok wrote: post #57
jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. The whole idea that this sort of thing is even anywhere near acceptable behavior revolts me.

> Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. s/foreigners/citizens/ i.e. everyone . I'm a Canadian Citizen. When I enter Canada from abroad, they claim the same rights as the US CBP. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/alain-philippon-cb...

The Alain Philippon vs CBSA action was never tested in court. Failure to divulge information hasn't been defined as 'hindering' before, so the case would probably have to go to the Supreme Court of Canada for it to be decided. Secondly, even at the border you can choose to remain silent. The most likely worst outcome is you get refused entry if you are not Canadian.

See linked page for advice from actual lawyers.

https://bccla.org/2016/08/what-happens-if-you-dont-provide-y...

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#424

Post by [deleted] »

corey_moncure wrote: post #202
graeme wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

--> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. How do password managers play into this? I'm likely going to be traveling to the US on business. I'll be bringing a travel phone rather than a normal phone (This is my standard travel practice for any country). I could do the same with a computer. I don't mind…

Encrypt your password store using gpg and zx2c4's pass! The GUI app qtpass even works on Windows. I've been using it for months and the system is rock solid and has never let me down. https://www.passwordstore.org/ They can copy your drive all you want, and you have until 2030 to change your passwords. Alternatively, just store them in a git repo on a server somewhere and access them remotely.

[deleted]

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#425

Post by angry_octet »

mschuster91 wrote: post #382
smoe wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, Swiss border police/customs officers (which often operate at random places in the country, not necessarily at the border) are not allowed to check the content of any electronic device without a search warrant. They can ask you to unlock the phone and show the IMEI number when suspicious of theft, but that's about it. Source: friend of mine worked there.

With phones without sealed batteries, the IMEI(s) are usually printed on a sticker in the battery compartment. Samsung and Apple engrave the IMEI on the outer casing of sealed devices. Always know where the manufacturer printed the IMEI, so you don't have to unlock the phone in front of police.

Of course, if you give them the IMEI it facilitates them listening to your phone calls and tracking your location. The 'checking for stolen phones' thing seems totally implausible to me.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#426

Post by anon2264 »

gph wrote: post #258
Zak wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's ridiculous to suggest that failing to stop law the misuse of law enforcement tools to harass dissidents early invites worse oppression later. These things have a way of ratcheting up until they get significant push back.

Maybe. Seems like the FBI and federal agencies were harassing dissidents a lot worse in the 60s and 70s through COINTELPRO than they are now. I don't know if it's really worse now so much as different with new avenues of harassment into our digital lives. You think dissidents weren't harassed at the border before everyone carried a cell phone? The post I was replying to was basically a vague reference to creeping fas…

Are you able to provide sources for the position you put forth about similar US harassment of political dissidents decades ago?

Obama prosecuted more journalists and whistle blowers than any president in history.

And we're not talking about turning into Nazi Germany. We're talking about why government crimes against their own people, especially for political speech, should never be allowed to happen because they can result in worse outcomes than you would expect.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#427

Post by angry_octet »

logfromblammo wrote: post #380
aianus wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't even let you into Iran without making you perjure yourself into pretending to be religious. "Atheist" or "none" is not an option on the form and is grounds for deportation or execution (if you're Iranian and renounce Islam). Iran's reputation for evil is well-deserved.

If you're atheist, agnostic, or nonreligious, and are forced to declare a religion, just say "Unitarian Universalist". Official church doctrine is essentially, "believe whatever you want; spirituality is a deeply personal experience, yet it can be shared with others".

Wonder if they accept Pastafarians?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#428

Post by rlpb »

gph wrote: post #142
Zak wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is more an issue of practice than theory. Every country might claim the authority to search phones, but if they never actually use it, there is no concern entering those countries in a practical sense.

And considering that something like 0.01% of travelers into the US are ever affected by this, you could say in a practical sense there is no concern here either. That's basically a rounding error worth away from 0%. In fact it sounds more like they generally target specific individuals based on their politics or whatever red flag gets thrown on them from the system. That's certainly dangerous in a way, but in essence…

> 0.01%

The same could be said about the proportion of innocent people who would be jailed without the presumption of innocence. Yet I still support the presumption of innocence, even though I personally have never needed it. It makes me feel safer and allows me to trust and cooperate with the authorities.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#429

Post by MichaelGG »

jensvdh wrote: post #413
MichaelGG wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but many times, especially if you're coming from a "worse" country, the agent is not going to believe you're going to return. So people lie about it, and thus get caught out. Yes, it is the role of CBP to make sure you're coming under the right visa. It's no different than making sure you're not coming to stay while on a temporary visa. No whether or not this is important or just silly politics is a different…

So you're saying as someone from a "good" European country (Nordic) I basically have to not worry about any of this?

You have a lot less to prove to CBP than someone coming from a broken country. Your incentives to stay in the US are drastically less than someone from, say Mexico. Other countries do the same thing. A US citizen gets a warm welcome into Mexico. A Guatemalan gets hassled.

There's still random bad luck - as a Canadian I've been theatened deportation for not cancelling my green card despite not using it or living in the US. I've been detained because a CBP agent decided a trade show was work and I wasn't eligible for a B1. (His first words were "you're going miss your flight, I'll make sure of it".) But most of the time they wave me right by.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#430

Post by jsmthrowaway »

angry_octet wrote: post #425
mschuster91 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With phones without sealed batteries, the IMEI(s) are usually printed on a sticker in the battery compartment. Samsung and Apple engrave the IMEI on the outer casing of sealed devices. Always know where the manufacturer printed the IMEI, so you don't have to unlock the phone in front of police.

Of course, if you give them the IMEI it facilitates them listening to your phone calls and tracking your location. The 'checking for stolen phones' thing seems totally implausible to me.

I'm intrigued that you think that requires an IMEI.
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