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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#401

Post by sudosysgen »

gruez wrote: post #312
sampsonitify wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what does welfare pay? Serious question as I'm not in the USA and have no idea. If Welfare pays less, isn't Uber/Lyft a positive thing? And that is just the direct monetary benefit of $27K vs welfare. There are many intangible benefits to work vs welfare beyond money. Being unemployed has mental health and life satisfaction costs (summary: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2019/04/is... ). This is…

>There is significant evidence that long term unemployment REALLY hurts someone's hiring chances when applying for a job (see https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/04/co... . from 2013 with linked papers). But in the study linked, they're really testing whether a resume gap hurts your chances of getting hired. I'm skeptical that it would translate the same to gig economy job, given you can't ask them…

This is a good point. Gig work is unfalsifiable and worth as much as a blank period to an employer trying to see if you are a good fit.

Hell, you could lie and say that you were an Uber driver and there is literally no way for this to be verified.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#402

Post by dahfizz »

Supermancho wrote: post #395
dahfizz wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Solely from the perspective of the person running the platform, it makes lots of sense to factor in "likelihood of accepting" into your driver selection algorithm. If I know driver X rejects all rides from a certain area, I'm going to stop showing them rides in that area. That way the user gets their driver faster.

> That way the user gets their driver faster. How is that relevant? If you are an agency, you are advertising availability both ways. If you filter on behavior, you are no longer acting as an independent agency but as an agent for one side. Disclosing pattern behavior (has rejected 12 rides this hour) is the correct way to provide value-add, not silently making decisions for parties.

> How is that relevant?

User experience is incredibly relevant. The entire purpose of the platform is to match drivers and riders. If it can do that more effectively, it has become better as an independent platform.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#403

Post by admax88q »

coding123 wrote: post #390
grandmczeb wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://www.uber.com/blog/california/set-your-fares/ My understanding is that the rider is presented with a range of possible fares before searching (e.g. $9-10). If they are matched with a driver asking for a higher fare than that range they have the option to decline.

So basically they will keep declining until they get the best price. It sounds like the proposed strategy is hogwash.

Isn't that just supply and demand finding the market price for something?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#404

Post by sudosysgen »

jluxenberg wrote: post #36
Skunkleton wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…

Tangent: $6/hr sounds a bit low; actual costs are probably higher. The IRS standard mileage rate (the amount you can deduct from your taxes for each mile driven) is $0.58/mi ( https://www.irs.gov/tax-professionals/standard-mileage-rates ) $6/hr operating costs means the driver is driving a max of ~10mi/hour, if costs to operate are in line with IRS guidelines.

I am almost certain 6$/hr doesn't count depreciation and only part of maintenance. Just fuel costs mean that if you were to drive an average of 20mph, you would pay on average 3$ in gas (in California).

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#405

Post by james-mcelwain »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #376
chillwaves wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are poor because they live on a knife's edge, one accident away from financial insolvency or lack of sufficient access to necessities like health care and education opportunities. Also having to work multiple jobs to break even. The problem isn't "inequality" it is that the floor in the US is so low compared to other wealthy nations.

This is a great example of having the right ideas but not understanding workable systems with real people. Let's take just one industry and I can show you how it's not as simple as you make it out to be: socialized/single-payer medicine. This is a system which reduces incentives (profits) in exchange for some equity. This is a great idea because we don't like it when people suffer. But what are the costs? Basic econo…

First of all, "Basic economics/psychology informs" does not constitute empirical proof that UHC leads to decreased "innovation" (which is a weasel word in itself).

Second, even if we granted the premise that UHC leads to less healthcare innovation, this doesn't mean that there's "infinite harm" in to people in the future. Unless you're claiming you have a crystal ball, there is absolute 0 epistemic basis on which to make this claim. For all we know, not having UHC leads to nuclear war and we all die. Or, having UHC leads to the singularity. Etc.

Third, even if we grant that there's an innovation advantage to for-profit medicine AND we grant that you can predict the future, that still doesn't mean that there's "infinite harm", precisely because "harm" is comparative. I would argue that we've picked most of the low-hanging fruit of human medicine and that the marginal utility produced by new treatments is far outweighed by the human suffering of our for-profit system.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#406

Post by smabie »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

We know how to solve this problem:just use an order book or auction.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#407

Post by iamkroot »

kreutz wrote: post #25

Why not let the market decide? If drivers are so unhappy why not just seek some alternative form of work? Uber/Lyft do not force anyone to hop online.

I have always been curious about this. What did the drivers do before these services existed? What prevents them from returning to their previous life if workings for Uber/Lyft is really as bad as I have been told it is? Why did they start driving in the first place?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#408

Post by sudosysgen »

xur17 wrote: post #352
jluxenberg wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the IRS number might be spot on. Quick math: ($25,000 cost to buy car new - $4,000 residual value at end-of-life ) / 100,000 miles usable lifetime = $0.21/mi depreciation of value $3.22 / gallon * (1 / (17 mi / gal fuel efficiency)) = $0.19/mi for fuel Maintenance: $40 per oil change / 8,000 miles = $0.01 / mi $600 tire change / 60,000 miles = $0.01 / mi $1,186 average yearly repair / 16,000 average miles dri…

But in most cases, you aren't buying a car just to drive for Uber (more than half drive between 1 and 15 hours a week [0]), you're doing it on the side. Your per mile costs for driving for Uber are the marginal costs (costs of additional insurance, fuel, marginal wear and tear, etc). Also, if you're driving for Uber in a new car that gets 17 mi / gal fuel efficiency, you're not making wise moves. There's a reason a l…

Well, no, because if you are an Uber driver the vast majority of the depreciation in the value of your car comes from driving Uber. Cars depreciate in large part due to mileage.

Finally, "marginal wear and tear" is a completely absurd concept. The cost of wear and tear on maintenance of a car has a positive derivative and thus has no margin, the more wear and tear the more expensive wear and tear gets. In other words, the limit of the cost of wear and tear as wear goes to infinity is divergent towards positive infinity. Thus, there is no marginal cost.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#409

Post by treeman79 »

Fauntleroy wrote: post #371
treeman79 wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good insight. Coming together is tricky when there is no common grounds. One side wants wealth to be fairly Evenly distributed to help the poor. The other side helps the poor by creating so much wealth that that most poor people have a lot of wealth. These days you can be considered poor and have housing, ac, heat, tv, video games, maybe a car, and weight problems because food is so cheap. This only leaves those who…

More likely that you'll have weight problems because healthy food and lifestyles are much more difficult to acquire and maintain without sufficient wealth.

It’s such a reversal. Historically Chunky woman were often considered more ideal since that meant wealth and status.

Skinny woman meant poverty.

Difficult to carry fat on a diet of turnips.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#410

Post by sida »

Retric wrote: post #239
bsimpson wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We expect eBay/Amazon/Etsy to enforce standards on their platforms, but no one would argue that their sellers are employees. I'm not convinced that having price and ride quality standards invalidates the contractor relationship.

Quality is debatable but none of eBay, Amazon, or Etsy enforce prices. Fundamentally choosing prices is what defines markets, trying to set them is the actions of an employer.

you know uber lets drivers set prices now right?
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