The earlier thread, before this new information came up, is at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24224882 and still ongoing.
Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#32Why not let the market decide? If drivers are so unhappy why not just seek some alternative form of work? Uber/Lyft do not force anyone to hop online.
The market is not fair. People have to eat, and will look for whatever job that can get that will help them eat and provide for their families.
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
one was a contractor for a company that did content moderation/fact checking on a big tech website. when ab5 was passed they predictably laid off everyone in california. others include freelance writers, and other online work
Upwork sent around a "Don't worry about AB5" email but I'm not taking chances. Just ended everything with Cali contractors.
yeah i mean frankly speaking it’s just not worth the risk to hire someone from ca given the law. it’s not like ca employees provide anything special over other state’s that would justify paying them more for low skill jobs that can be done remotely
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#34Why not let the market decide? If drivers are so unhappy why not just seek some alternative form of work? Uber/Lyft do not force anyone to hop online.
it's not that simple. by that logic you could say eliminate minimum wage and any other legal employee benefit. companies are in a position of power so they must be regulated
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#35Uber gained market cap of $4B since this appeal news broke, already spent $100M to fight AB5, all the while they burnt $2B in their last quarter. And yet their argument is they can't afford to spend $300M to cover driver benefits and pay into state unemployment insurance.
I'm in a non-rideshare field. The law here (AB5) has been a disaster, a total mess.
One proof point, workers in a TON of fields have absolutely flooded Sacramento to get exception after exception into this law. This is not a normal principles based law. This a law with "principles" that are so ridiculous that everyone then goes let's carve these random folks.
Get a grip.
Imagine if we had laws like this elsewhere. It's pathetic - really.
Some of the carevouts.
physicians surgeons dentist podiatrists psychologists veterinarians insurance brokers lawyers architects and engineers private investigators accountants securities broker-dealers and investment advisers direct sales salespeople (often horrible abuse here with door to door sales) marketing professionals travel agents human resources administrators graphic designers grant writers fine artists enrolled agents payment processing agents through an independent sales organizations photographers or photojournalists freelance writers editors newspaper cartoonists and lots more I think gig musicians want to be sure they have a carveout. Fisherman are doing carevouts. I think truckers are getting a carevout. A bunch of beauty industry jobs A ton of contractor and subcontractor work
There has got to be some transit union or something pulling strings here - because the law is horribly unworkable even for folks who DO want to do the right thing. Most are resigned to waiting until everything is carved out but uber and lyft.
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#36"Uber and Lyft say drivers prefer the flexibility of working as freelancers, while labor unions and elected officials contend this deprives them of traditional benefits like health insurance and workers’ compensation." I was curious about what drivers think. I guess they're not happy [1] but want to be independent contractors still [2]. 1. https://therideshareguy.com/uber-driver-survey/ 2. (In a May online survey dra…
> ...Uber drivers reported earning $13.47 per hour, which means that on average, drivers report that their car is costing them over $6 per hour to operate. If you were to drive full time, that would get you about 27k/year, which is about the average income that a taxi driver makes. Rideshare companies are asking you to take more personal financial risk than you might as a taxi driver, but giving you more flexibility.…
Tangent:
$6/hr sounds a bit low; actual costs are probably higher.
The IRS standard mileage rate (the amount you can deduct from your taxes for each mile driven) is $0.58/mi (https://www.irs.gov/tax-professionals/standard-mileage-rates)
$6/hr operating costs means the driver is driving a max of ~10mi/hour, if costs to operate are in line with IRS guidelines.
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#37Why not let the market decide? If drivers are so unhappy why not just seek some alternative form of work? Uber/Lyft do not force anyone to hop online.
Because a lot of drivers start driving because they already can't find an alternative form of work?
Or they already have another job (or several) that does not pay enough. However, they can't find yet another job with flexible enough hours.
When the job market is garbage, "just let the market solve it" doesn't really cut it.
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#38Uber gained market cap of $4B since this appeal news broke, already spent $100M to fight AB5, all the while they burnt $2B in their last quarter. And yet their argument is they can't afford to spend $300M to cover driver benefits and pay into state unemployment insurance.
Am I understanding this correctly? You mentioned the market cap because you're proposing that they leverage their market cap to pay for this by making share offerings available on some short enough cadence to ensure cash flow? Or to collateralize some loan with the current ownership?
That's not a conventional strategy but perhaps you can make a good argument for why it will work.
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And yet their argument is they can't afford to spend $300M to cover driver benefits and pay into state unemployment insurance. You compared global market cap/revenue losses to just the impact of CA. What happens when other markets follow in CA's footsteps?
This argument that local laws can't be followed because "what would other jurisdictions do" doesn't seem to apply to authoritarian places like China who impose pretty onerous requirements for operation (like state ownership). There is another option for Uber/Lyft - to let drivers set their prices and/or routes. Of course, that would make them less of a unicorn and more of a utility and that would crater their valuati…
And also make the service much less useful. Or at least very different from what it is now.
Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay
#40For those wondering why Lyft and Uber doing the shutdown, it's to bully voters into voting their way on Prop 22 in November. They had two years to adjust their businesses for a proposition approved by voters. They chose to spend nine figures fighting it in the press and the courts.
I mean - if no one else comes up with a business now that works well and people enjoy doesn't that prove Uber and Lyft are right in that the platform is valuable and unique? If California lawmakers are using this as negotiating tactic that's cool with me - but I'm not sure why we wouldn't expect Uber or Lyft to negotiate as well.
> I mean - if no one else comes up with a business now that works well and people enjoy doesn't that prove Uber and Lyft are right in that the platform is valuable and unique?
To me, it proves that investors don't have the appetite to fund an underdog fight against the two large companies. There are ethical alternatives (at least half a dozen when I last checked a couple years ago), but they're slow-growing. The fact that the conversations seem to default to assuming there are no other alternatives already speaks volumes about consumer mentality.