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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#401

Post by Chris2048 »

pm90 wrote: post #234
unprepare wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>especially a great starting salary. This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks. Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech compani…

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. An…

> demand far outstrips supply

and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

> can't code even if their life depended on it

No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#402

Post by ild »

wan23 wrote: post #353
Retric wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people in the US who know the language and are not willing to move to Alabama for 95k? Then the market has spoken. The entire point of capitalism is not everyone get's what they want and price how that is decided.

The thing is that this is a problem caused by government regulations interfering with supply and demand. If there is a business that's willing to pay for a worker and worker willing to take the job then it should be good for the economy for that match to happen. However, in this case immigration regulations sometimes make the supply lower than the demand. Sure, that makes the price go up and that's good for workers b…

Who gives a damn about what is good for business? Businesses are (very) important only up to a certain point, until their interests start to go against the interests of the people.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#403

Post by someguydave »

gumby wrote: post #384
someguydave wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But the system does need an escape mechanism when nobody local can do the work. I submit that there is no work in the US that can't be done by a US citizen. The problem isn't "finding someone" the problem is "finding someone at the below-market-rate wage we want to pay"

> I submit that there is no work in the US that can't be done by a US citizen. In another thread to this article I gave an example of a teacher for a German school -- native speaker, experienced in teaching the German state curriculum. A few such people have moved here and indeed we hired them, but mostly they had to come in on H-1. There are certainly medical specialties for which there is a shortage of available do…

I would agree that US experts in obscure foreign culture might be hard or impossible to find. Otherwise I do think that there are experts in the US on nearly every topic - and if the labor market is demanding a particular topic with high wages people in the US will pick it up.

I don't have a problem with hiring foreigners as long as they pay a fair sum to the taxpayers for thier diminishment of citizen's welfare. This is because immigrant is a potential drain on the welfare state and also uses resources that otherwise would be enjoyed by citizens.

Also I do believe most h1bs are paid below market rate because they are hired by large IT contractors like Infosys. They have the people and presence in India to make hiring in H1b cheap- they contract to US firms and pocket the difference.

For small business in the US I would agree that h1b is expensive.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#404

Post by Chris2048 »

pm90 wrote: post #262
unprepare wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time. I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers , at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not e…

> they are incompetent programmers, at least right now

So train them. They will want to be trained and fill those roles if the salary is high.

> I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living

Why can't they? Offer easy entry, and the promise of a high salary, and more people will want to do these jobs. If everyone got to do what they wanted, we'd have a surplus of firemen and veterinarians, and few accountants and garbage men.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#405

Post by Chris2048 »

msabalau wrote: post #151
devmunchies wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing Yeah ok, buddy. Try that line when you don't wanna pay taxes.

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasi…

> a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity

google says:

> people united by common descent, history, culture, or language

You added "and ethnicity", are you saying a nation can't be composed of multiple ethnicity?

And does it really matter? America is a country.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#406

Post by caseymarquis »

whatever_dude wrote: post #56
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

Maybe some sort of waiver would solve that within the context of the H1B? Exceptions based on regional needs or organizational focus?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#407

Post by conanbatt »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #155
conanbatt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question would be why have a cap at all.

Because no country has a cap-less work-visa program for American workers.

Tit for Tat between states for the life of individuals?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#408

Post by Chris2048 »

ghurtado wrote: post #255
mywittyname wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being intentionally obtuse. Sure, the Native Americans would have gotten along fine with bows and horses. But we are discussing the economy. The growth the US economy throughout its history was driven heavily by immigration.

> You're being intentionally obtuse Side note, but every time I see someone online accusing someone else of being "intentionally obtuse" I stop reading immediately. You know nothing of the intentions of a stranger who's obviously willing to openly discuss an issue with you.

> I stop reading immediately

Intention can be inferred; when the stranger is being intentionally obtuse, they aren't being "open".

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#409

Post by conanbatt »

technofiend wrote: post #127
conanbatt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question would be why have a cap at all.

There is no reason if one is OK with a nearly unlimited supply of cheap labor pricing out local competition and/or depressing wages. If a hypothetical person thinks "free markets über allies" of course they're fine with unlimited visas depressing wages and increasing competition. (I don't know if that's your view, this is just a hypothetical.) On the other hand old farts like me already have an advantage over the ave…

I'd say it doesnt matter if they were educated or not, only if they can work in the US, which means they provide value to the economy, because they produce more than what they cost. If someone is educated and paid for it himself or with the generosity of another state, why does it matter?

Saying that bringing employees drops wages salaries is similar to saying the US shouldnt export things because it increases the price of local goods. Its simply not good from an economic perspective, its not really up for debate. I've never heard an economist saying immigration is bad economically for a country at any level except living on welfare.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#410

Post by Chris2048 »

tim333 wrote: post #149
testUser69 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the lamest argument that people use. This is a non-argument and I have no idea why it gets upvoted. You don't understand the economics of the situation. For one thing America isn't the only nation they can go to, go steal wealth from Canada. Second, for a very long time immigrants did help build America, but they were literally poor and willing to work mundane jobs for no minimum wage, and they came over here…

Immigrants stealing wealth is not really something that happens, economics wise. Usually it's the other way around.

Immigrants are a bargaining chip used by businesses to steal wage, e.g. Techtopus was called "wage theft".
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