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Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

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Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#41

Post by enaaem »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #37

In Judo one uses the momentum of the aggressor against them, and I wonder if the west could do something analogous in this situation. E.g. quietly accept the new oppression, but actively seek out and assist anyone in HK who wants to leave to gain access to high quality human capital and good will. The resulting collapse of HK as it empties could be shown to everyone interacting with China that this could be their fut…

In the book “A blue print for revolution” they described how you can use a regimes paranoia against them.

The best way is through humor. A great example is the Winnie the Pooh meme. The meme wasn’t even that funny but the CCP’s reaction to it is absolutely hilarious. It made Winnie the Pooh an anti CCP symbol and it raised global awareness of the CCP’s authoritarianism.

Winnie the Pooh won’t overthrow the CCP by itself, but the process of revolution is slow and you have to play the long game.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#42

Post by albertopv »

wiz21c wrote: post #26

I don't like the "pro democrcay" thing... Isn't it more like "pro occidental/western" countries versus "pro chinese/urss/oriental" countries ? When used that way, democracy sounds like an absolutely good thing which it is not; it's just a way to organize power...

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time".

Democracy is one of the few things to be an absolute good thing. It have many flaws, but still I would't live in a dictatorship like the one established by URSS or Chinese Communist Party, where you could easily disappear if you say something troublesome for people in power. This is not just power organization, it's plain survival.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#43

Post by bellyfullofbac »

jacquesm wrote: post #29
baybal2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK has all means to successfully use force, and secure its gains - that's the military reality on the ground. It has an amphibious force to land a division, more with requisitioned civilian vessels, and it has thermonuclear weapons to threaten chokepoints — more than enough to get the peninsula. UK is not a small military. With mobilised territorials, and first line conscripts, it will be as much as 10-12 divisions r…

During the Yugoslavian war there was a stand-off between the Russians and some American troops around the Pristina airfield. "The following morning, Sunday 13 June, Clark arrived at Jackson's HQ in Skopje. It was pointed out to Clark that the Russians were isolated and could not be reinforced by air and that Russian support had been a vital part of getting a peace agreement; antagonising them would only be counterpro…

A trivia of this was that the British soldiers on the ground were led by future famous musician James Blunt. Headline is probably exaggerated, but:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/how-james-blu...

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#44

Post by champagnois »

jacquesm wrote: post #35
champagnois wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Sure: they made a deal. But now they are breaking some of the terms of that deal. And that's not nice to the people in Hong Kong.

Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation.

When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all.

Full context allows the public to have a sense of things.

Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts:

(1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewar with China. The Chinese economy was somewhat of a marvel of the 1700s-1800s, studied by US presidents and founding fathers like Ben Franklin even.

(2) The UK couldn't produce anything the Chinese wanted to buy (a goal to help the UK economy), but ultimately hatched a plan to smuggle a well-known deadly and addictive drug into Chinese ports: Opium, which has been known to grow well in the India colony / Afghanistan and is also related to heroine / morphine / opioids.

(3) The UK's drug smuggling cartel via the British East India Company and backed by their navy eventually causes huge problems for Chinese citizens and their every day life. People are dieing. The Chinese government then organizes special anti-drug smuggling operations to end the illegal drug cartel's drug smuggling.

(4) War starts. The Opium Wars. Plural. The UK navy steps in, the Chinese military was defeated, and this was all to force the Chinese to permit the UK drug cartels to continue operating. Part of the treaty ending one of these Opium wars allows Hong Kong to be leased to the UK for them to set up an offensive post on Chinese territory from which to continue poisoning the Chinese public.

(5) HKs economic miracle was propped up by drug smuggling and money laundering and tax haven status. It wasn't much of a miracle. Drug smuggling and tax dodging are universally condemned both in the West and China.

(6) The public in HK is losing features of Western civilization (like a free press and anti-beijing school programs) as they transition back to governance by the broader Chinese civilization.

(7) There IS a small degree of turmoil as HK society is re-organized, but it should be understood in context. Transition from Civ A to Civ B, who both have completely different systems of law.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#45

Post by mytailorisrich »

octopoc wrote: post #9

This is yet another violation of the Sino-British Joint Declaration, the treaty between China and the U.K. defining how Hong Kong will be handed over to China[1]: > Hong Kong would maintain its existing governing and economic systems separate from that of mainland China under the principle of "one country, two systems". The West needs to realize: China does not uphold its own treaties. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

The Sino-British declaration was a way for the UK to save face and to sell the handing over of HK. It's naive or disingenuous to claim that China would do anything but whatever they wished to within a Chinese territory.

Ultimately HK will be fully reabsorbed back into the rest of China. That was always the plan and that was always going to happen. That said, HK is still separate so China is still broadly abiding by the declaration.

What the West needs to realize is that China is no longer a pushover that can be bullied at will. There is still a whiff of colonialism when Western media discuss HK.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#46

Post by guilhas »

FpUser wrote: post #12

>"The West needs to realize: China does not uphold its own treaties" "The West" had long realized that the might makes right. Once country has achieve certain level of power the only thing that makes those to adhere to some treaty is their mutual willingness. If country does not see any it can and will ignore it. There is no abstract enforcer up above that can make parties of that level stick to the agreement.

Russia withdraws from Open Skies Treaty after US withdrawal

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/15/russia-withdraws-fr...

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#47

Post by mytailorisrich »

mrpopo wrote: post #22
baybal2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK has all means to successfully use force, and secure its gains - that's the military reality on the ground. It has an amphibious force to land a division, more with requisitioned civilian vessels, and it has thermonuclear weapons to threaten chokepoints — more than enough to get the peninsula. UK is not a small military. With mobilised territorials, and first line conscripts, it will be as much as 10-12 divisions r…

This would be the worst course of action. The Chinese population is propagandized enough and won't hesitate to go to war head-on against the West.

Why do people think that Chinese nationalism is a result of communist propaganda?

Why would it be wrong or unexpected for people to go to war if their country was attacked?

The Chinese have seen their country invaded and sold piecemeal and have been striving to 'fight back' and to stand on their own two feet. That reaction started before the communist party was even created and the party is just an expression of it.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#48

Post by guilhas »

The West needs to realize Hong Kong is a part of China, that was leased to the UK for 100 years

The West has no more say in it than China has a say in Catalonia or Scotland independence, Texas or California secession. Or their governing models

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong

To the bigger question, since world border defining wars have become an historic unacceptable concept, how much power should be given to smaller subgroups into shaping their own, and the larger group, policy and borders

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#49

Post by alimw »

champagnois wrote: post #44
jacquesm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure: they made a deal. But now they are breaking some of the terms of that deal. And that's not nice to the people in Hong Kong.

Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewa…

I am not qualified to judge the veracity of points 1 through 5. But I can see they have precisely nothing to do with points 6 and 7.

Re: Hong Kong pro-democracy Stand News shuts down after police raid, arrests

#50

Post by Moodles »

jacquesm wrote: post #34
Moodles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting question on how to deprogram the pro-communist party populous. All the brainwashed types I’ve ever spoken to believe the most insane things despite otherwise being intelligent people. E.g. Covid was made by the US to frame China. They also seem to conflate criticism of the CCP with Chinese people in general. I suspect many of the people behind the troll pro-China accounts commenting here are doin…

> All the brainwashed types I’ve ever spoken to believe the most insane things despite otherwise being intelligent people. This is a general problem, not limited to China. A good percentage of the world population is ready to believe just about anything, no matter how outrageous. Witness the whole COVID denial movement as one example. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-people-fall-for-con...

Right, but China is a particular severe problem.
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