Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#41

Post by jimmaswell » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

Free college works just fine elsewhere.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#42

Post by thatfrenchguy » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

Well when it’s free & the gov pays, they’ll make sure their budget is tight.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#43

Post by throwayEngineer » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:44 PM UTC

resoluteteeth wrote: post #17

throwayEngineer wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1 out of 10 masters classes changed my life. I imagine my peers had 0/10. A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future.

> A masters degree doesn't pay in dollars, but experience that can set you apart in the future. Surely "experience that can set you apart in the future" can be captured in calculations of lifetime earnings?

Go ahead then. My website is unprofitable but it's a conversation piece.

Did my website get me a 6 figure job or my undergrad in engineering?

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#44

Post by crsv » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

rolltiide wrote: post #32

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

out of curious, what roles do you hire for? in my world which is software engineering: lesser tier, middle tier and ivy league doesn't make a difference for actual wage work, with ivy league seeming to have outsized advantages in capital formation and being around capital in general. for wage work, no degree + experience is the same as have any degree. completely obliterating the tier of school. people with no experi…

Currently mostly non-technical: Marketing, Sales, CX.

The topic of school tier is a messy one. Unless you're in a big org that's running really active recruiting efforts at the source of top tier schools, you may not have a real representative set of high tier applicants to ultimately check for differentiation. This topic also gets political and ideological really quick, but we do have some reasonably sound data that says for example that (and I'm speaking broadly here) people with MBA's from "division 1" style schools tend to annihilate (to put it lightly) lower tier MBA's in work simulation exercises involving business acumen related competencies.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#45

Post by novok » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

State universities in other countries either supply control through very high entrance standards or keeping everything cheap (think the interior of the typical USPS post office).

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#46

Post by __full_pint » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #9

bunderbunder wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the bootcamp model. I also don't like what a lot of graduate programs have become, insofar as they're jockeying to become souped-up bootcamps by making ever more grand career promises while trying to minimize the amount of time it takes to earn a degree. Just no. Schools shouldn't be selling jobs. They should be selling education. To that end, what I really want to see is more schools than just community…

>Schools shouldn't be selling jobs. They should be selling education. I think that is what we have now... the education is disconnected from the jobs in the sense that the price makes no sense. I think a lot of what you describe is what happens when an education system thinks they're just selling "an education" without consideration that their student's are can't afford it.

This seems to really come down to a couple of factors:

- What program the student chooses

- Is said program at the University recognized

- If recognized does the program provide a proper mix of theory and application

- What opportunities does the program actively provide for the student

- Is the student willing to be an active participant in their education

- Is student and active participant in what resources the program offers

If yes to all of the above, then student really receives a proper well rounded education practical knowledge, and the resources to find a job. Along with that they have the tools to continue to be a competitor in the market and in their current employment.

Far too often it seems that a degree just implies employment and competitive salary. If properly used and taken advantage of it really implies being a much better competitor when all else is held equal.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#47

Post by GcVmvNhBsU » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:45 PM UTC

Mentioned in the article is a company called 2U. The Huffington post had an article not too long ago about how online program managers like 2U contribute to the high cost of programs, and how masters programs are specifically targeted because there are not reporting requirements on admissions.

https://www.huffpost.com/highline/article/capitalist-takeove...

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#48

Post by joker3 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #27

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

How much of what you see is people who had pursued master degrees during the economic downturn? I heard that there was an enormous amount of people exiting the workforce to pursue education when there were few jobs available. Instead they likely got a pile of debt with no real furtherance of career goals as the economy recovered.

The relationship between the business cycle and demand for graduate school is complicated. Some programs have a very strong countercyclical component to their demand, and others don't. See http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648... (and section 5 in particular).

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#49

Post by __full_pint » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #35

Who the hell pays for an MS? At least back when I was in engineering grad school, everyone was covered by RA or TA grants, in addition to being paid by those. Of course in-state tuition at KU in 1996 was under $100/credit-hour, so if I did pay, those 9 credits/semester would be under $1k total.

I’m confused as well, I’ve known a few MS CS students who didn’t do the RA TA Route, but were paying out of pocket. I never asked why because it seemed to be an infringement on their privacy.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#50

Post by prions » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:48 PM UTC

I went back for my masters in CS after being a civil engineer for two years and learning cs my free time.

These articles panning formal education don't fully grasp how difficult it is to get your foot in the door as a non-cs person whose also working full time.

I also wanted to do something more technical than just web dev, which most career changers seem to land up in. Being a grad student opened a lot of doors into more technical roles in companies that are _only_ reserved for grad students.

Grad school is expensive, but I went in with a solid plan. I mitigated some of this by going to an in-state school with a good CS program and commuting to class. I was very focused in my course choices and was a 4.0 student, which unlocked even more opportunities.

I was able to land two good internships (one in embedded development and one in machine learning) and used that experience to springboard into a high paying role in NYC. I have no problems living alone in the city, paying my loans, and still saving a significant amount of money per paycheck.

This is completely anecdotal but what I'm arguing is that grad school can be a good idea if you have a solid plan of how to get the most out of your education. The people I see who haven't gotten their money's worth came into school and just drifted through while assuming that opportunities would come to them just by virtue of being a grad student.