Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#31

Post by crsv » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #27

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

How much of what you see is people who had pursued master degrees during the economic downturn? I heard that there was an enormous amount of people exiting the workforce to pursue education when there were few jobs available. Instead they likely got a pile of debt with no real furtherance of career goals as the economy recovered.

This is a great question. There may be some variability by role type, but for the last two hires where I started noticing this trend usually the masters was acquired 17-18 or 18-19 on the resume (2 year masters programs). These are also for mid-level roles as opposed to entry level or senior. Probably a lot of factors but I'd wonder if the readily available access to student loans was the biggest enabler. Just off the cuff I'd be curious if these decisions involved the perception of necessity for masters degrees or in how many cases they simply wanted to prolong the experience of undergrad (college is often a good time, I get it), and with the barrier being no more frictive than the student loan process they navigated for under grad, the decision just being the path of least resistance more than a calculated risk/reward decision.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#32

Post by rolltiide » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

out of curious, what roles do you hire for?

in my world which is software engineering: lesser tier, middle tier and ivy league doesn't make a difference for actual wage work, with ivy league seeming to have outsized advantages in capital formation and being around capital in general.

for wage work, no degree + experience is the same as have any degree. completely obliterating the tier of school. people with no experience having the same conundrum whether they have a degree or not, but at least people with a degree can do coding interviews.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#33

Post by JackFr » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

> The dept of education needs to treat universities the same way Medicaid treats healthcare providers. Determine what it actually costs per student per year to run a university, and tell the schools "Accept $x or shove off". If they're going to benefit from gov backed loans, they should play by the govs rules.

This.

Either eliminate Federal aid entirely, or if you want aid, here's the price you're gonna charge.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#34

Post by dd36 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:37 PM UTC

freewilly1040 wrote: post #30

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.

Or to do exactly as the OP said: this is what we’ll pay per student.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#35

Post by madengr » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

Who the hell pays for an MS?

At least back when I was in engineering grad school, everyone was covered by RA or TA grants, in addition to being paid by those.

Of course in-state tuition at KU in 1996 was under $100/credit-hour, so if I did pay, those 9 credits/semester would be under $1k total.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#36

Post by crsv » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:39 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #28

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

> These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate education coupled with meaningful real world experience. It sounds like you're hiring juniors. What about seniors? Where would you rank someone with an undergrad + 10 years work experience, versus a masters + 6 years work experience? What about 20 vs 16?

Mid-levels mostly. Non-technical.

For senior level, and YMMV, but for non-technicals, as time goes on experience beats the education badge and I think as you go higher in the sophistication of the hire the more nuanced the process becomes to where at least at the first level evaluation, formal education becomes increasingly less compelling.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#37

Post by permatech » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

In engineering the quip was always "if you're paying for graduate school you're doing it wrong" ... to even get in the door for most hardware jobs fresh out of school you need a MS. A PhD may be preferred, and will start with a higher salary -- but put in ~5yrs instead of 2. As long as the tuition is covered and you make money as a TA or RA in a low-cost of living area you should come out ahead in the engineering field. Not sure how that translates to software.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#38

Post by elliekelly » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #29

I'm not sure what societal purpose is being served by Federal student loans as a class for graduate school. Eliminate them entirely. The primary effect will be to reduce the disconnect between the cost and the value. As an added benefit prices should come down, schools at the margin will fail.

And number of graduate degrees conferred should come down. I'm not sure what purpose is being served by the vast majority of graduate degrees other than being a requirement to get your "foot in the door" because everyone else has one, too.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#39

Post by F_J_H » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:40 PM UTC

Something I've speculated on - being a student provides a person with an identity that is reasonably "high status", or certainly higher status than an entry level position one might be forced to take in absence of a finding a job in one's chosen field of study upon earning a Bachelor's degree. (Especially if it's a Master's program.) So, for some, continuing on with a master's degree is preferable, despite the questionable marginal return.

On the other hand, degree inflation is now a thing. In some fields, those you are competing with you for a job likely have master's degrees already, and you'll suffer by comparison.

*edit: typos

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#40

Post by fma » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

rongenre wrote: post #23

duxup wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in your experience and life. Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that. Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit like gambling.

The only advantage I can see to going for an MS straight out of undergrad is that your lifestyle should be pretty low-rent. But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.

It's a major advantage. I went to the same state university for my masters, so to me it was a continuation of my undergrad but in classes I was actually interested in. Even dumping money into a startup, I graduated with a low amount of debt. I lived a thrifty lifestyle, made money from internships, and after my sign on bonus for my full time job, I was debt free after graduation.

My concentration for my MS was AI & Computer Networks...which I've never used :) Because of market forces I'm an application developer.

I graduated 11 years ago and between then and now (married, 2 kids) I doubt I would have found the time and motivation to go back to school. It was around the housing crisis and jobs were crappy/not available so that was another motivation to do my MS. I also had the connections to form a startup (which failed) with other peers which has lead me to my current career.