Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#21

Post by duxup » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

rongenre wrote: post #10

Grad school really needs to have a cost/benefit analysis applied. I'd have loved to go and really deepen my understanding, but it's pretty clear that both in terms of income lost and not a huge premium paid by the industry over my BS and experience it's not worth it. It is something I may pursue if I get a windfall and am no longer concerned about retirement.

I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in your experience and life.

Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that.

Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit like gambling.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#22

Post by crsv » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now.

These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate education coupled with meaningful real world experience. This carries over to performance in interviews as it related to applied knowledge as well. I'd say when putting a risk lens to this, it doesn't bode well for the likelyhood of timely repayment of this debt at scale.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#23

Post by rongenre » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #21

rongenre wrote: post #10

Grad school really needs to have a cost/benefit analysis applied. I'd have loved to go and really deepen my understanding, but it's pretty clear that both in terms of income lost and not a huge premium paid by the industry over my BS and experience it's not worth it. It is something I may pursue if I get a windfall and am no longer concerned about retirement.

I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in your experience and life. Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that. Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit like gambling.

The only advantage I can see to going for an MS straight out of undergrad is that your lifestyle should be pretty low-rent.

But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#24

Post by duxup » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

rongenre wrote: post #23

duxup wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think maybe the only real way to know what the cost benefit might be for an individual is to just ... go work for a while and then see what you find in your experience and life. Then you're making a much more educated calculation as far as what you think it might get you, and if you want to go back to school and that. Just throwing that all on the front end while you're in school seems a bit like gambling.

The only advantage I can see to going for an MS straight out of undergrad is that your lifestyle should be pretty low-rent. But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.

>But doing grad school because you're good at school and don't know what else to do is a trap lots of otherwise smart people fall into.

I suspect that is very much a thing. School is a great system that if you're good at it provides very clear paths to lots of affirmation and ... a good time.

I don't blame anyone for being hesitant to step out of that bubble.... but not doing so can be pretty terrible too.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#25

Post by ghobs91 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train?

Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of redundant administrators and have never-ending construction, thereby justifying higher tuitions as "operating costs".

The dept of education needs to treat universities the same way Medicaid treats healthcare providers. Determine what it actually costs per student per year to run a university, and tell the schools "Accept $x or shove off". If they're going to benefit from gov backed loans, they should play by the govs rules.

Look no further than this chart (https://i.imgur.com/B3sVMjg.png), around 2010 was when the gov started fully backing and giving the loans directly, and conveniently it's when students needs for loans skyrocketed. It's so obvious that colleges took advantage of it.

Enough is enough, this college cost situation is entirely the fault of the gov for allowing it to happen, and it's a massive drag on our economy and the potential of our citizens.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#26

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

joker3 wrote: post #3

duxup wrote: post #2

I wonder as far as education goes if graduating college, working, and then returning for a masters or similar things would be a better pattern. Or even graduating high school, working, college, working, college, or something else would be a better pattern. I've worked with some folks with MBAs who have no clue about how to work with people / think they're just "the boss" and what they say goes because no reason at al…

I really don't like the idea that education is a thing you do once in your late teens/early twenties and then finish. There are good reasons to do something then, but there's no good reason to stop.

Paying for education (and doing education full time) might well be things that you stop. They can be a good idea for a while without being a good idea forever.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#27

Post by mediaman » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

How much of what you see is people who had pursued master degrees during the economic downturn?

I heard that there was an enormous amount of people exiting the workforce to pursue education when there were few jobs available. Instead they likely got a pile of debt with no real furtherance of career goals as the economy recovered.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#28

Post by vkou » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

crsv wrote: post #22

As someone who's hiring folks right now, a shocking trend is applicants who chained expensive middle tier private college expenses with middle to low tier private college masters programs - often times unrelated to the ultimately role they're applying to now. These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate educa…

> These investments aren't setting them up to be compelling candidates against folks who have equal and sometimes lesser tier schools as their undergraduate education coupled with meaningful real world experience.

It sounds like you're hiring juniors.

What about seniors? Where would you rank someone with an undergrad + 10 years work experience, versus a masters + 6 years work experience?

What about 20 vs 16?

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#29

Post by JackFr » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

I'm not sure what societal purpose is being served by Federal student loans as a class for graduate school. Eliminate them entirely.

The primary effect will be to reduce the disconnect between the cost and the value. As an added benefit prices should come down, schools at the margin will fail.

Re: Biggest Offender in Outsize Debt: Master’s Degrees

#30

Post by freewilly1040 » Wed, Jun 05, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

ghobs91 wrote: post #25

This is what happens when there's 0 pressure on universities to price their programs competitively. If the government is backing every loan, the schools get paid up front, and the risk is then transferred to the gov to collect, why WOULDN'T a university charge as high a tuition as possible and hop on the gravy train? Their non-profit status hasn't even done much to keep costs low, as they can just keep hiring tons of…

This is why I'm so skeptical of the "free college" rhetoric from Elizabeth Warren and the like... The underlying problem is the giant wealth transfer to colleges, and the progressive fixes seem to be to transfer even more wealth to them.