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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#391

Post by nashashmi »

valarauko wrote: post #58
sbmthakur wrote: post #10

That's unfortunate considering Ahmadiyyas were at the forefront of the Pakistan movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_in_Pakistan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis

The community also produced Pakistan's first Nobel Laureate, and the first Muslim to receive a Nobel for science. Upon his death, the Pakistani government defaced his gravestone to remove the word "muslim". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam

Indeed they are highly educated minority. Often it is thought that the British facilitated their establishment and growth and gave them opportunities both in the colony and abroad from which they prospered.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#392

Post by [deleted] »

mabbo wrote: post #280
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

[deleted]

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#393

Post by nethunters »

kamel3d wrote: post #386
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

Seems you have no understanding what Ahmadiyya standing for, let's clarify something first, one morning an Orange start calling herself Apple, should we start calling this Orange apple? should to Orange get offended if we still call it Apple? well we have to call the Orange Orange based on our well established understanding of the characteristics of a na orange and what makes it different, Ahmadiyya is widely conside…

Funnily enough the Ahamdis don't consider normal Muslims to be Muslims too!

Statements of Mirza Basheer-ud-Din, Ghulam Ahmad’s son and successor, including what he wrote in his book Ayena-e-Sadaaqat (p.35):

“Verily, every Muslim who does not pledge allegiance to the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), whether he heard of his name or not, is a disbeliever and outside the fold of Islam!” He is also quoted in the Qadiani periodical, Al-Fazl (30th July 1931) as reporting from his father, Ghulam Ahmad himself that he said:

“We disagree with the Muslims in everything: concerning God, the Messenger, the Qur’aan, prayer, fasting, hajj and zakaah. There is a fundamental difference of opinion between us in all of these things!”

https://www.masjidattaqwa.co.nz/ahmadiyya/

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#394

Post by closeparen »

mabbo wrote: post #280
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

If you think "the ethical thing" is to undermine governments which don't conform to our values... do you vote for the most hawkish candidate in every election? Are you joined up with the armed forces? Why not? America could bring the whole world to heel on "freedom & democracy," and yet even people who think of themselves as righteous, don't want to. Why?

Could it be that cost is actually a good argument?

Could it be that trying to impose your own system of morality on the whole world is not actually a moral act?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#395

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #378
babesh wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that companies argued to continue doing business with South Africa because it would be a net benefit to those countries. It’s the same argument.

No it’s not remotely connected. There is no international sanctions campaign aimed at forcing Pakistan to support freedom of religion. There isn’t even any significant international response. The argument is that in the absence of any international action against Pakistan that might actually cause change, it is better for the people to continue to have smartphones, access to Google search, etc. If there was any inter…

You don’t take a moral stand when everyone else takes a moral stand. Someone has to be first.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#396

Post by babesh »

onethought wrote: post #389
babesh wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They segregate Chinese data in China and have easy access to it. I wonder if they leave the rest of the world data in the US.

Do they store US data in the US and have easy access to it?

Do they store German data in the US and have easy access to it?

Google stored it everyone’s data everywhere and somehow the US had access to ALL of it unencrypted.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#397

Post by rpdillon »

snoshy wrote: post #266
pas wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is oppression additive/cumulative/composable/transitive? When someone has the power to do "fix" things but chooses not to, then that someone is partially responsible. Can A or G (or together) fix this?

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression. Make no mistake, it is mone…

Both choices seem terrible to me: either stop serving swaths of users or take part in removing their freedom. If Apple and Google fostered a strong community of alternative app stores, they wouldn't have to make this choice at all.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#398

Post by Bakary »

closeparen wrote: post #394
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

If you think "the ethical thing" is to undermine governments which don't conform to our values... do you vote for the most hawkish candidate in every election? Are you joined up with the armed forces? Why not? America could bring the whole world to heel on "freedom & democracy," and yet even people who think of themselves as righteous, don't want to. Why? Could it be that cost is actually a good argument? Could it be…

>America could bring the whole world to heel on "freedom & democracy"

Nuclear weapons may have something to say about that...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#399

Post by babesh »

onethought wrote: post #389
babesh wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They segregate Chinese data in China and have easy access to it. I wonder if they leave the rest of the world data in the US.

Do they store US data in the US and have easy access to it?

They also are intentionally fuzzy with Americans. Your privacy is important they say. They say that they will fight against government to protect your privacy. What is more important is that they don’t tell you. Your data is backed up onto Apple’s servers and Apple has the key. What I read is that Apple got pushback from the FBI. Don’t hear about the FBI suing Apple for access anymore. Wonder why? Maybe they have all the access they want while Apple can continue to brand itself the privacy moralists. Hahahahaha!

https://www.sott.net/article/427853-Backdoored-backup-FBI-ba...

The difference is that in the US, Apple pretends to be for privacy whereas in China there are no such pretensions. Also because of greater reach, US companies have access to far more countries and people who are not at all protected by US laws.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#400

Post by Bakary »

rat87 wrote: post #351
nomoreusernames wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Laicite is stupid France doesn't understand freedom of religion, a fundamental human right which they have pledged to uphold. Take the french school headscarf ban or the stupid outrage about the Burkini

They do understand the concept, they just start from premises that are different from that of the anglosphere.
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