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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#51

Post by zupreme »

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating.

On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim).

On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers.

These may seem fair to you, but that may be because these practices have not negatively affected you...yet.

But consider: Would it be fair if England declared Catholics “unChristian” and banned their use if the term? Or what if the USA declared hasidic jews “Unjewish” and banned their use of the term. Or what if Apple caved to pressure theoretical from Israel to ban Jehovah’s Witnesses from using the term “Jehovah”?

What next? Government declaring who is and is not “white”?

Oh wait......

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#52

Post by silentsea90 »

DSingularity wrote: post #49
adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

Yeah I agree with you that the sovereignty of people should be respected. But shouldnt we draw some line? Say Israel makes a law that Arab citizens should be tracked through a digital symbol to identify that they are of the non-Jewish subset of the population — should US companies comply? And I specifically choose Israel because it has a history of discrimination against its Arab population.

If the pattern tells you anything, US companies will comply.

The major notable case of non compliance has been Google not entering China, which I argue has been more to do with internal activism than the company's preferences. Would also say that it is harder to leave a country once you're in it than not entering in the first place, so I think Google might not have left China if that were the case.

Apple happily conducts business in China and I am absolutely certain allows backdoor access to the Chinese Government. Arguably, the US getting backdoor access is almost as bad so we should already be up in arms about this, but I don't see a protest anywhere.

Hope the new privacy and decentralization wave makes it very hard to spy on people.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#53

Post by gostsamo »

adventured wrote: post #22
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

I'll say it here again:

There are basic human rights, that when breached by a law, make the law a crime.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#54

Post by kop316 »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

So may I ask your opinion of this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_d...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#55

Post by patwolfe »

wtf_is_up wrote: post #40
sanxiyn wrote: post #11

I am waiting for comments from Alphabet Workers Union. They said they "demand that the tech industry refuse to maintain infrastructures of oppression". This seems like a perfect fit.

Slactivism is fun when you can use it to enhance your social capital, but doing the actual work is a chore.

I think once they got to the point of forming an actual union (which, at Google, has a historical risk to job security) the "slactivism" potshots became inarguably unwarranted.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#56

Post by echelon »

ycombigator wrote: post #44
fmajid wrote: post #27

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

Censorship I don't like...

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted.

We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander.

This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop.

Big platforms should be common carriers. If content is illegal, tell the FBI or get your lawyer to sue for damages.

Similarly, if an American company can't operate overseas without trampling on basic rights and civil liberties, they shouldn't be doing business there.

I'm a liberal and side with Stallman and the FSF. Censorship, monopoly power, and fascism are bad. Don't defend the instances of it you like. It's all bad.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#57

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

If we got to that situation, that would be the result of far greater problems than having or not having a particular app.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#58

Post by valarauko »

sbmthakur wrote: post #10

That's unfortunate considering Ahmadiyyas were at the forefront of the Pakistan movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_in_Pakistan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis

The community also produced Pakistan's first Nobel Laureate, and the first Muslim to receive a Nobel for science. Upon his death, the Pakistani government defaced his gravestone to remove the word "muslim".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#59

Post by sanxiyn »

echelon wrote: post #56
ycombigator wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship I don't like...

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…

Note that content in question here is, in fact, illegal in Pakistan.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#60

Post by dmortin »

FriedrichN wrote: post #28
adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gatekeeper is Pakistan, it's their sovereign territory. The Internet isn't outside of that reach, it only exists inside of a territory with the permission of the government that controls it. You might as well be talking about any of a zillion laws within 195 different countries that one might find objectionable, it's exactly the same 'problem.' What's the premise? Pakistan doesn't get to decide their own laws? Th…

That would be nice if phones were open and free, but they aren't. For many, especially in developing nations, the phone is the way to access the internet. If Google/Apple wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the world of mobile phones, people would be free to choose which app repo they use or which apps they sideload. But sadly, they are not.

Andriod is open in the sense that you can sideload apps independently of the play store, you just have to enable it.

So in such countries the movements with banned apps should post step by step guides for their followers of how they can enable sideloading and install the banned app.

On iPhone you have to root your phone for sideloading, so that is a closed system for the average user, but on Android there is an option for that, so no rooting is required:

https://www.howtogeek.com/313433/how-to-sideload-apps-on-and...

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