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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#391
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean.

Recruiters and interviewers focus too much on "technology of the day" that will always change and be out of date, and not enough on foundational knowledge that is always transferable to new tech. So if you don't have they right modern tech stack on your resume then you have no chance of getting hired even if you are perfectly capable of doing the work. This is where "resume driven development" comes from. Smart and r…

Big companies seem to typically be on the opposite side, and not care about tech of the day.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#392
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Gray-haired contracting life is a different beast altogether compared to being an employee.

How did you start?.. the fear of not being able to acquire work is what's stopping me.

Started by talking with contractors who worked where I was full-time. Many had long term contracts & were making 2x what I made, doing the same work. Test the market before making the jump. Also, keep in mind that staying at the same job is not as secure as it seems; contracting is less risky than full times these days, especially as you get older.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just want to nitpick on a couple of these: > brain "degradation" At 40? If you're suffering from loss of mental capabilities to the point that it affects your performance at work at 40 , you have medical issues that need immediate attention. > simple economic math ( fresh meat is cheaper and more malleable ) I've seen this stated many times, but nothing is forcing anyone to offer a particular salary or demand a parti…

Not sure that I agree on the first point. In my 20s, I could easily work 12 hour days, keep tons of complex state in my head, and almost never walked into a room and wondered why I went there (both literally and in the programming metaphorical equivalent). In my 40s, much of that has changed. I'm beat mentally after a 6-7 hour day of coding. I can only keep smaller portions of the system in my head easily. It's possi…

I think you're selling yourself short. In your 20s, you have a lot less mental baggage to deal with, on so many levels. This is a good thing when you need to work hard (which we all did when we were young :) ).

Even if you can only work 6-7 hours a day now, you're most definitely spending that time a lot more efficiently than you did a decade ago. You don't need to keep more information in your head at the moment because you have decades of wisdom guiding your decisions.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I met a COBOL contract programmer 15 years ago. At the time he made a lot of money from it because there were few left, no new work, but maintaing old code bases. Java today, OTOH, is nowhere near that point yet. People still build plenty of new things in Java and it's easy to search a job site and see tons of Java jobs. The JVM is widely used and no-one will blink twice if you want to build something on it. I don't…

I think it's a mistake to confuse JVM languages with Java. But that aside, By "Java is the new COBOL", I'm not saying that Java today is COBOL today. I'm saying it's a dominant language for legacy apps and a lot of "enterprise" coding in shops that already have a heavy Java investment. But relatively few new companies are doing new work in pure Java, so it's definitely headed down the same road. And there are definit…

Netflix, Amazon, Google are all on the Java train in real capacities. There's a crap load of Java out there.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#395
post #60

The strangeness of Silicon Valley right now is that if you're lucky you can "retire" long before 40. I'm 31 and have through a bit of luck accrued a small 7-figure net worth. I don't plan on being a "rank and file" employee by 33, let alone 40.

You need 8 figures to retire. $30k/year (poverty level) over 30 years is only $1M.

You're assuming zero real interest investment growth over 30 years. I totally agree with stacking as much as humanly possible, but that's not a realistic assumption, unless we have worldwide zero economic growth for a third of a century.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#396
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guitar playing is a good analogy here. Say you've played classical for years and dabbled in rock and some jazz. Like any musician you've played around a little but probably focus on one style. You're best friend asks you to play flemanco for them at their wedding. Sure, you won't be as good as someone that's played flemanco all their life. But if flemanco was invented 5 years ago you're sure going to pick it up f…

I like this analogy for a separate reason. Many musicians can relate to hitting a ceiling in terms of ability. You might have X years playing any instrument, but depending on talent, you may have plateaued for some period of time. It is highly likely for anyone that has stayed in one role (in a mature industry) that has not actively sought extra-curricular technology to experience this.

But plateaus are local. Usually they happen because you don't know how to progress anymore. Once you figure that out you jump ahead again. I think with age it is easier to become complacent and just say "this is enough". Which there's nothing wrong with that. But I think it is different than hitting a real ceiling. You're not at peak.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guitar playing is a good analogy here. Say you've played classical for years and dabbled in rock and some jazz. Like any musician you've played around a little but probably focus on one style. You're best friend asks you to play flemanco for them at their wedding. Sure, you won't be as good as someone that's played flemanco all their life. But if flemanco was invented 5 years ago you're sure going to pick it up f…

>No matter the language you use, there are common patterns. Someone who has been programming for years generally picks up a new language quickly (because of this). So should a programmer with 30 years of experience in C and 1 year in rust be paid more than the programmer with 5 years of rust experience? Absolutely. Those 30 years they were learning to program, to debug, to solve problems. The skills translate. Tell t…

I think that's much more true of large companies than small ones. At a small company, the engineers are more likely to be involved in the hiring process, and (unless they're very inexperienced themselves) they'll have a better sense for how skills translate.

For example, on my team, we're writing most of our new code in Kotlin. But even though the language has now been around for the better part of a decade, we regard prior Kotlin experience as only a very slight nice-to-have when we're evaluating someone. If you've programmed in Java or Scala or C# or C++ or pretty much any other statically-typed language, you'll pick it up quickly enough that the time to get productive in Kotlin will be dwarfed by the time to get familiar with our code base.

What we do usually filter out, though, is monoglots. If you have 10 years of experience and have only ever done, say, Ruby on Rails development, you will probably not have the breadth of engineering perspective to succeed on our team. But if you've done RoR as well as something else that's dramatically different, that's fine. We would probably even filter out a Kotlin monoglot in the unlikely event we ever came across one.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mistake to confuse JVM languages with Java. But that aside, By "Java is the new COBOL", I'm not saying that Java today is COBOL today. I'm saying it's a dominant language for legacy apps and a lot of "enterprise" coding in shops that already have a heavy Java investment. But relatively few new companies are doing new work in pure Java, so it's definitely headed down the same road. And there are definit…

Netflix, Amazon, Google are all on the Java train in real capacities. There's a crap load of Java out there.

Sure. All of those companies are over 20 years old, so it's not surprising they'd have codebases in a language that was very hot early on in their lifespans. There was a also crapload of COBOL out there for decades after new companies turned away from it. There is still a fair bit.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#399
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those are cleanly separable. When you talk with people who left the industry, it's very rarely, "I was successful and engaged and really enjoying it, so I decided to switch to something entirely different where I had to start over and earn a lot less." For a lot of people who experience discrimination, it's not one big blow-up that forces them out. It's the steady drip-drip-drip of being treated poorly,…

And sometimes when people aren't that good at their jobs, they blame external causes instead of accepting responsibility for their own performance. (Note: I do realize that discrimination and bad managers are real things, but then again so is the Dunning–Kruger effect.)

This is true, but at best it's irrelevant to the point being discussed. And at worst it's the sort of victim-blaming that is used to undermine every time discrimination comes up.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#400
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just quality, it's capability. As I'm fond of saying, I may cost twice as much as an entry level engineer, but I can do things that two entry level engineers can't do.

I keep hearing this but sometimes you just need hands on keyboard to push things out fast. Yes I can do a passable job at front end, middleware, databases, and I'm pretty adept at cloud infrastructure and devops. Does that mean I'm as valuable as 5 people? I can only do one of those at the same time.

It depends entirely on how much autonomy and motivation you have. I have to do all of that for my own modest product, but it's only viable because I have complete autonomy to decide what the most efficient approach would be... and I enjoy it.

This isn't typically how it plays out when you start a new job for someone else. Which means they won't reap the rewards of your experience until enough trust has been built to give you the autonomy to make it happen (this may never happen). So it takes time, and not everyone wants to take that time or can see the benefit, and arguably in the startup space there may not be enough runway for it either.

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