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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#261

Post by beat »

awakeasleep wrote: post #259
asdfman123 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

I think you miss the point about 'shelf life' The shelf life is due to a business decision, where the knowledge the older person has is deemed insufficient to justify the compensation they've grown used to. Sure, you love working with them and it's better for engineering, but the business wants college grads they can pay less, even if they don't do the same quality work. Importantly, this doesn't have to be logical o…

It's not just quality, it's capability.

As I'm fond of saying, I may cost twice as much as an entry level engineer, but I can do things that two entry level engineers can't do.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#262

Post by Kenji »

Frankly, I think this is a bunch of complete nonsense. Skilled, intelligent greybeards are worth a lot because those decades worth of knowledge transform directly into superior architecture, tooling and code cleanliness. I think the problem is that the enthusiasm of most devs that are 40+ is dead and they're unwilling to learn new things. Obviously such an employee is worthless. But it has nothing to do with age, it has to do with will to learn. The two seem to be correlated but if you hire a 50 year old guy with the drive and the will to learn, you lucked out big time.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#263

Post by brucehoult »

projectileboy wrote: post #4

Age discrimination is absolutely a thing, but (and this is only based on anecdata) I would say it is much, much worse in the valley than just about anywhere else. The rest of the world seems to have a less damaged culture.

I'm a 56 year old programmer from New Zealand. I moved to the US to join a hot Silicon Valley RISC-V startup earlier this year. I think the average age of our software team is probably over 50. Certainly the median is.

My previous job (and my first ever outside NZ) was working for a multinational electronics company in their Moscow Russia R&D lab, a job I got when I was 52.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#264

Post by celticmusic »

szatkus wrote: post #251
celticmusic wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate standups with a fucking passion. All a standup to me is an interruption 30-45 minutes into the day which causes me to lose an hour or more of time every single day. I basically just fart around with things that don't need much focus until the standup happens. The worst part is that I suggested instead of standups we just send what we we would have said in the standup via slack. That lasted 3 days. The reason n…

If it takes 30-45 minutes something is wrong. I hated standups as well until I worked with right people.

you misunderstood, the standup happens 30-45 minutes into the workday.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#265

Post by beat »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #188
Stratoscope wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I've noticed is that there seem to be a lot more older developers and engineers at hardware-oriented companies. I currently work at Wing Aviation, the Alphabet drone delivery company. We were originally located in the Google X building, which is the old Mayfield Mall in Mountain View. I used to shop at that mall in the 1970s! X is full of hardware startups, and when I started there I noticed one thing right…

That's probably not by coincidence. The cost required to fix a hardware/firmware defect vs a software defect is much more. I'd definitely want to put my best engineers on the product that can't be easily fixed once it's shipped vs software than can always be patched. > I'm 67 and have been programming for 50 years. Also, that's really impressive. You've probably forgotten more than I've ever learned!

Personally, I find it slightly weird that I've been in the industry longer than some of my co-workers have been alive.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#266

Post by pmiller2 »

saltcured wrote: post #218
pmiller2 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You assume “we” all start at 25.

That is the basis of the assumption of 40 as a boundary as well, isn't it? I don't think most people really believe there is some biological limit of 40 for programming, but more an apparent shelf-life for your run of the mill programming career. This all strikes me as a specific case of the more general character of any ~20 year or "generational" endeavor. You experience phases of intellectual and social stimulation…

You don’t seem to understand how ageism works. The limit is “you look old,” whether that’s in person, or because you have 20 years of work experience on your resume. Think “overqualified,” or “not a culture fit.”

It isn’t rational like you seem to think. If I were 40 and thought I could have a 15 year career in software, I wouldn’t be worried, either.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#267

Post by teddyh »

PorterDuff wrote: post #229
zackmorris wrote: post #196

Ok I'll bite. I had the realization yesterday that I peaked at 25 (I'm 42). I got my computer engineering degree in 1999 and used to do things like really complicated integrations in calculus, and solve weird 3D intersection formulas for different variables to do change of coordinates on various surfaces for rasterizing before wolframalpha.com was a thing. I look at my invention lists from 20 years ago and they were…

That's a good post, but I think that I went down a different set of windy little paths. My worlds (graphics and video products) had tons of companies disappear, and the ones still standing matured to the point of offshore manufacture, maintenance, decreasing margins. It hasn't all disappeared but I think that a lot of the fun is gone. I'm older than you, never bothered with internet technologies and languages, and fe…

> My temptation is to take on increasingly archaic skills.

I am reminded of the protagonist in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius who at the end, when the whole world is changing into a new world with a new culture and languages, he retreats to spend his time translating a classic 17th century English text into Spanish, both of which are soon-to-be dead languages.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#269

Post by blankcheque »

PedroBatista wrote: post #149
burlesona wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry but if you think programming is not a “shitty job and a sad life.” While individuals certainly experience really bad situations in every walk of life, programming is an exceptionally valuable and versatile way to make a living, and offers a level of freedom and economic mobility that most people in most fields could only dream of.

While I'm aware and fully agree with your University of Phoenix pitch, please try to listen and understand that's only true given the right context ( both economic, social, time, etc. ) Most people sit at an office in front of a computer for at least 8 hours a day, some of them are developers. Most "problems" they "solve" are very distant from the "Changing the World and give meaning to your life, one PHP line at a t…

I'm not sure where you're working but where I work, being a developer is awesome.

Fresh, healthy, high quality, free food catered for 3 meals a day? Check.

Best healthcare possible provided at no cost? Check.

Stocked kitchen with all kinds of snacks, high end coffee, kombucha etc with ability to make requests? Check.

Freedom to come in when I want and leave when I want? Check.

Work remotely when I want? Check.

Any equipment I want at any cost? Check.

Top of market pay for size of company? Check.

Beautiful office with natural sunlight, plants everywhere, and fresh air? Check.

Autonomy and creativity in my role? Check.

Top percentile talent as coworkers who are genuinely amazing collaborators, interesting people and great to work with? Check.

Like with all professions, there are depressing jobs and great jobs. If you're a dev working at a paper mill in the midwest with draconian dinosaurs as management, yeah it might not be the best gig. But if you work at a company that values software and understands the leverage of great developers, then I can't think of a job that's more cushy and fulfilling.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#270

Post by brucehoult »

cleandreams wrote: post #245

At forty I was just getting started. I'm 63 and I have done lots of super hard projects and I keep learning more and I have advanced up the tech ladder. And, the problems are harder than ever. For me the key is going after the hardest problems because that is what I like the most. Think system software, compilers, AI. It just seems to have been a good career move though that was never my intention. I've worked in are…

Yup. I moved into compilers and related things by starting to contribute to an open source compiler project in 1999 when I was 36 and got my first full-time compiler job when I was 43. Now I'm 56 and in the last couple of years started moving into designing new CPU instructions as well as the software to use them.
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