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Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#131
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

That’s basically how I find work. I’ve been in Unix admin since the 90s.

Do I know the latest coding pattern some adjunct professor is teaching after copying it from a math book into code, like the college grads I often encounter?

No.

Do they know much about operating at scale? How USE their tools?

They know what ideas are important to computer science. They often don’t know how to make anything work that isn’t an insecure mess.

I think that’s the important take here: I program less these days because I’m teaching people how to make shit that’s more complex than their reduced to a few talking points homework assignments.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#132
post #94

The article uses Ruby on Rails as an argument from 2009, saying the 10 years of C++ development is no longer relevant. Apart from that statement not really ageing well, it doesn't really make sense as there will always be a consistent demand for C++ for embedded etc., likewise Java for enterprise, as they are mature and proven technologies in instutitions. Just as there is an established market for RoR with companies…

I think you're making the author's point. Java at this point is the new COBOL. C++ has gone from important mainstream language to narrow niche. Ruby on Rails is on the same declining curve, just not as far along; much of the excitement has shifted to Node, React etc. Demand for old languages isn't consistent. It declines over time as code bases get replaced. A programmer betting that they will die before their chosen…

I would say both Java and C++ still are important mainstream languages.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#133

This is generally true. It's a combination of many things, from brain "degradation", ageism, simple economic math ( fresh meat is cheaper and more malleable ), other more important interests like having a real life and when you really mute all the marketing BS, your delusions and wishful thinking, the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life for the maj…

>the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting

What is a "professional setting" in this context?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#134
I'm 51, an electrical engineer who has migrated over time from ASIC design, to board design, to ASIC validation, to embedded software development, to team lead, development manager, back to IC as architect and enventually principal engineer for media, real-time software development. You shape your career. You make it happen. Find what you like, and go for it.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#135
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life."

In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself.

Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel software dev isn't that different.

The only problem is if you're older you do need to follow new technologies. Older devs I've talked to who were pushed out of the field are the types who worked on, say, mainframe technology well into the mid-aughts and never thought about learning anything new.

As long as you get off the sinking ship of technologies that are obviously waning (and you should have at least a decade of warning in advance, I think), I don't think it's honestly that hard to stay current. You don't have to follow every fad, but make sure people will continue to use your main programming language.

Also, startups discriminate on age because they need people that can work until 2 AM and drink their Kool Aide. But there's a lot of stable, non-startup jobs out there. People who have never left the scene probably think of it as death, but there's actually some really nice enterprise shops out there with great developers.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#136
>the software engineer depreciates only slightly more slowly than the machine he or she toils behind

The author takes a debilitating credibility hit with this statement. A computer can be worthless after 5 years. So an engineer is what, worthless after 6 years?

He also chases this experience paradox too far. When I (and believe it or not more than a few others) hire someone or negotiate pay I assign zero value to years of experience.

If being a seasoned veteran has any value, I want to discover it in relevant interviews through conversation, problem solving, wisdom, etc. I could make a mistake and not see it but I'm not paying more because of a number.

Same with a recent graduate, there's quite a bit of variation in maturity, communication skills (yes a fine weapon for an engineer to wield), and ability. Some 22 year olds having been coding since they were 12 years old. If all this seems to manifest value during the process, why would I possibly not pay this person more the than the standard "new graduate" scale and risk losing them to a competitor?

I realize not all will think this way and yes, some of the things written do happen but the tone is too alarmist. It's just something that can be unfair and a challenge but it's not insurmountable. It's not like being black in Alabama in 1950.

One thing older engineers should do is the same thing younger ones should. Don't just naively learn tech that's interesting. "Interesting" is important because it can grant effortless motivation and passion. But at least research and sort rigorously the salary differences for 20 different things along with variables like generalist vs specialist company size etc.

Then choose whatever the heck you want, because you've made a conscious decision about your preference to balance interest vs money and choose to make 75k or 250k a year in a state that doesn't have to be on a coastline.

You can even try to put a less enlightened interviewer at ease by being honest. You could tell them you can't be demotivated even if you did take a salary cut, because you don't build your identity on that because it's not about me. It's about how much market value I can deliver via tangible and measurable results. It's about whether I can actually help the company reach goals faster, add productivity and help the company be more successful. And if can convince you such objective things are likely after our interview, I believe they should be the most decisive criteria for your decision.

Here's some random 81 year guy. probably all washed up no doubt. Would you be willing to give him a shot to help you out on some algorithms? For some reason I just feel after speaking with him it wouldn't seem like much of a risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#137
post #46

I'm not sure I'm buying that. The JVM ? Still rocking it 20 years after. Memory allocations pattern ? Still there. The network stack ? Well, doesn't seem to have changed a lot. The older guys, they seem like they had the time to correctly learn the unix network tools, the jvm debugging ones, the memory inspection ones. I've known older devs for which I have the utmost respect because I felt like they can just debug t…

I’m always mirin’ my current boss when he opens midnight commander and figures out the answer to his question by looking at the hex of the binary. I needed to change a string in a compiled binary and as I pulled the project down to change and compile from sources, he suggested we just patch the binary and we did in 1 minute with hexedit. I really don’t buy that skills don’t transfer. Where this is actually the case m…

"Mirin is a common staple used in Japanese cooking. It's a type of rice wine, similar to sake, but with a lower alcohol and higher sugar content."

Unlikely this is what you meant. Admiring?

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#138
post #40

There are many domains esp. Finance where you move up or move out. Programming also tends to be one of them. Scott Adams wonderfully says develop a talent stack, Programming is just one of them. Add Math, Sales, Communication, Leadership etc. Become a triple threat! Being above 80 percentile of 3 skills put you at a unique place. Many people here have the mental mechanics for it. This one thing is true, I resisted..…

100% agree and can give a real world personal example.

The combination of above average ability:

- as a python programmer

- to read and understand other people's code (mostly by being methodical with unit tests etc)

- to document processes clearly

- write clear emails

- find "stupid" processes and eliminate or streamline them

All of the above combined have taken me from senior engineer to about to manage a team of multiple engineers.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Save and invest 40% of your income. After 15 to 20 years you should be able to declare financial independence, if you want to...

That only works if you start at 25 when you graduate. Not a viable plan for someone approaching 40 who wants to make sure they can continue to support themselves into their 60's and beyond.

Obviously you need to plan ahead, perhaps read some personal finance books now and then. "The Millionaire Next Door" is still relevant. I read it when I was 22, followed most of it...
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