Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#331

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 8:56 PM UTC

c0vfefe wrote: post #325

pmiller2 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber and Lyft don’t belong on any “Big N” list until they show a profit rather than pissing away billions a year.

How much profit does Amazon show?

Amazon made $2.62 billion in the last quarter, and $3.5 billion the quarter before that.

Amazon makes a ton of money, and (quite transparently I might add) they plow a lot of their earnings from some of their businesses into investing into their other businesses, which is what most investors want.

This is completely different from Uber and Lyft, where it's not clear that their profit potential supports their current valuations.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#332

Post by ilaksh » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

People here hinting at outdated technologies are mentioning things like Fortran. I'm 41 and some of those things are technologies my dad used. So it seems that people are off by one of two generations.

I went through phases with PHP, C#, SQL, and then many years mainly focused on JavaScript and Node. I did some Angular and a little React with recently C++ and Lua on the side. I built about 90% of a Docker orchestration system. The front end stuff I am most familiar with at this point is Vue. I have been looking into decentralized technologies in the last few years like IPFS and dat etc.

It might be nice to have more experience with Kubernetes or Go, but the experience I do have is still relevant. And if I needed to pick that stuff up for a job I could learn it.

But anyway I think that the idea that older developers don't have relevant skills is false.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#333

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:06 PM UTC

PedroBatista wrote: post #9

This is generally true. It's a combination of many things, from brain "degradation", ageism, simple economic math ( fresh meat is cheaper and more malleable ), other more important interests like having a real life and when you really mute all the marketing BS, your delusions and wishful thinking, the actual work of being a developer/programmer in a professional setting is a really shitty job and sad life for the maj…

[deleted]

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#334

Post by PedroBatista » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #308

PedroBatista wrote: post #168

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Sitting in front of a computer for years, trying to fix mundane problems, bugs, implement very important and urgent features that are very useless and not really urgent. You know, being the brick mason of yet another cathedral of delusions and failure as most business are. Which is life and I don't really have a problem with that. But we are all human and after a decade of this shit, it gets hollow and meaningless.

Why not try working on your own thing? Sounds like you're burned out on corporate work.

I did but got lost in my own mind and the solo business is obviously a lot harder ( if you're just a grunt programmer).

Without maturity, a strong social network and discipline every solo venture will end up in isolation and depression.

But I still try the usual side projects that get started and not finished like everybody else. :)

Right now, I just wish I would find something 80% business and 20% tech with a feedback loop comparable to a plumber ( work for a day or 2, when it's done its really DONE. Move to next job )

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#335

Post by blankcheque » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

dobleo wrote: post #293

blankcheque wrote: post #269

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I'm not sure where you're working but where I work, being a developer is awesome. Fresh, healthy, high quality, free food catered for 3 meals a day? Check. Best healthcare possible provided at no cost? Check. Stocked kitchen with all kinds of snacks, high end coffee, kombucha etc with ability to make requests? Check. Freedom to come in when I want and leave when I want? Check. Work remotely when I want? Check. Any eq…

What you say is that for you all those benefits outweigh the actual fact of sitting in front of computer all day. It's hard to give them all up, that's true.

Could you imagine working retail where you have to be on your feet hours a day with no break? You have no choice.

I get to sit or stand when I want (I have a motorized, adjustable standing desk). I can go for a run mid-day if I want. I can hit the gym if I want. I have any number of options. If I choose to sit in front of the computer all day, that's usually MY fault (but to be fair sometimes there's a launch date looming that results in me working extra).

It's all about choice. I have that. Many professions don't.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#336

Post by rjsw » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

svachalek wrote: post #327

unoti wrote: post #298

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> In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. While this is true for you, there is a lot of selection bias and survivor bias involved in this. For These older developers you need to also consider their comrades they were working with 20 years ago. For every older dev you work with today, there are 10 of their former…

Or they hit the stock lottery jackpot and have retired, or moved into management, or marketing, or started a sandwich shop. But I do think there's a bit of generational shift that the stereotype of outdated engineers haven't caught up with. When I started out in the mid-90s, anyone more than a little older than me didn't have a CS degree and had come up in a world without source control, continuous integration, autom…

I was using source code control and open source software in the mid-80s.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Post by wpietri » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #238

wpietri wrote: post #94

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I think you're making the author's point. Java at this point is the new COBOL. C++ has gone from important mainstream language to narrow niche. Ruby on Rails is on the same declining curve, just not as far along; much of the excitement has shifted to Node, React etc. Demand for old languages isn't consistent. It declines over time as code bases get replaced. A programmer betting that they will die before their chosen…

I met a COBOL contract programmer 15 years ago. At the time he made a lot of money from it because there were few left, no new work, but maintaing old code bases. Java today, OTOH, is nowhere near that point yet. People still build plenty of new things in Java and it's easy to search a job site and see tons of Java jobs. The JVM is widely used and no-one will blink twice if you want to build something on it. I don't…

I think it's a mistake to confuse JVM languages with Java. But that aside, By "Java is the new COBOL", I'm not saying that Java today is COBOL today. I'm saying it's a dominant language for legacy apps and a lot of "enterprise" coding in shops that already have a heavy Java investment.

But relatively few new companies are doing new work in pure Java, so it's definitely headed down the same road. And there are definitely plenty of companies where people will blink a lot more than twice if you propose building something in Java.

That's not to say it's bad; I've written a bunch of Java for money, and may do so again. But I think it's hard to justify in a lot of environments, and correctly so.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

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Post by PorterDuff » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #267

PorterDuff wrote: post #229

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That's a good post, but I think that I went down a different set of windy little paths. My worlds (graphics and video products) had tons of companies disappear, and the ones still standing matured to the point of offshore manufacture, maintenance, decreasing margins. It hasn't all disappeared but I think that a lot of the fun is gone. I'm older than you, never bothered with internet technologies and languages, and fe…

> My temptation is to take on increasingly archaic skills. I am reminded of the protagonist in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius who at the end, when the whole world is changing into a new world with a new culture and languages, he retreats to spend his time translating a classic 17th century English text into Spanish, both of which are soon-to-be dead languages.

The endgame is likely flintknapping, although I was tempted to re-create Egyptian fiaence as an Etsy business.

(reading through the referenced story, it parses like RA Lafferty. I would pay good money for a conversational Alexa of that type)

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#339

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #261

awakeasleep wrote: post #259

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I think you miss the point about 'shelf life' The shelf life is due to a business decision, where the knowledge the older person has is deemed insufficient to justify the compensation they've grown used to. Sure, you love working with them and it's better for engineering, but the business wants college grads they can pay less, even if they don't do the same quality work. Importantly, this doesn't have to be logical o…

It's not just quality, it's capability. As I'm fond of saying, I may cost twice as much as an entry level engineer, but I can do things that two entry level engineers can't do.

I keep hearing this but sometimes you just need hands on keyboard to push things out fast. Yes I can do a passable job at front end, middleware, databases, and I'm pretty adept at cloud infrastructure and devops. Does that mean I'm as valuable as 5 people? I can only do one of those at the same time.

Re: Programmers: Before you turn 40, get a plan B (2009)

#340

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Aug 02, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #273

asdfman123 wrote: post #135

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Yeah, you hear all these horror stories about how developers have a "shelf life." In the meantime, though, every single older developer I've met has been extremely knowledgeable and frankly much better at the craft than myself. Look at any hobby -- say, guitar playing. The difference between someone who's been doing it for 4 years and someone who's been doing it 20 years is ridiculous. They're so much better. I feel…

I am at a startup just now and they are complaining about frontend devs as - they don't hang around - they don't want to touch the old frontend written in Dojo, just the React stuff. I'll do whatever (I am officially a 80% backend dev who can do enough frontend when needed). The Dojo way of writing things actually seems a lot nicer than React, but it ain't cool.

I don't care about it being "cool", but I'm not going anywhere near a company doing Dojo because it isn't marketable.