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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

theatlantic.com

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#391

Post by mcv »

junto wrote: post #18

> Tone of voice dictates whether you're going to get compliance or not. "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes…

I try to give them a choice in what they want on their bread, but they always want something I'm not offering, or they want nothing, or they ignore me. So I just make their choice for them, but give them time to interrupt me. Sometimes they're ignoring me so hard that they miss their opportunity, and then we've got a problem.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#392

Post by agarden »

I like some of the ideas in this article, but brushing off punishment as ineffective seems short-sighted.

For parents with kids who end up at a clinic because of problem behavior, punishment is ineffective. There is a selection bias going on here. Punishment, as noted in the article, is the first go-to for most parents. In situations where that works, they don't end up at a clinic for problem behavior.

If the first go-to for parents were offering shallow choices and rewarding desirable behavior, clinicians would probably find that problem behavior can't be solved that way. They might even be finding that the most effective way to deal with problem behavior is to just punish it immediately and decisively.

In other words, there is a large toolkit to be used to solve behavioral problems. Different tools work in different situations.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#393

Post by mcv »

GrinningFool wrote: post #386
prawn wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to avoid promising TV/iPad as a reward, good alternatives are: "If you get in the bath, I'll go and choose a bath toy that you've never even played with before." (And then I find something random in the kitchen - ladle, colander, Tupperware, etc.) or "If you get dressed, I'll tell you something interesting about Mercury." (Or owls, or bullet trains or anything you can come up with.) Used the Mercury one w…

> or "If you get dressed, I'll tell you something interesting about Mercury." Gonna have to try this one - my son loves collecting facts. Thismay prove very helpful. Even if it turns out not - thanks for the idea, it's a good one.

My son loves these kind of facts so much he has books on them and knows more than I do. He kept quizzing me on some size or distance or mass where the answer was a couple of septillion (European ones, not your small American ones).

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#394

Post by SeanDav »

maxxxxx wrote: post #113
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

One of the biggest causes of poor dog behaviour is failure by the breeder to properly socialize the puppy. Puppies should be handled frequently, starting from newborn and preferably by as many people as possible. This imprints the dog with the concept that human=boss,parent,good person.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#395

Post by wlesieutre »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

This trick popped up as the top post on r/lifeprotips a few days ago. The top comment was someone whose kid figured it out.

"Would you like to buy me one set of nunchucks or 2 sets?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeProTips/comments/5g9pai/lpt_mot...

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#396

Post by mcv »

codingdave wrote: post #49
icebraining wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"According to the Department of Education, over 166,000 students in public schools were physically punished during the 2011–2012 school year." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...

While that is a large number, it is less than a half of a percent of the entire student body of the USA. As I said, it happens. But isn't the norm. Also, If you are going to cherry pick quotes, try the last 3 paragraphs of the Overview section, which talk about how it is not widely accepted, and the efforts to outlaw it. Or, just this one: "Most urban public school systems, even in states where it is permitted, have…

It's an enormous number. Less than a half percent is still nearly one in 200. That means it either happens in most schools, or it happens a lot in some schools.

Just once would be an outrage in most western countries. The fact that there's no outrage about this in the US, shows that it's accepted. Maybe not everywhere, but in enough places to reach this big number. The fact that it's permitted at all shows that it's accepted. And that's just the school. If it's this accepted to do it at school, how common is it really at home?

But I suppose it fits the general American love for harsh punishment. I think it's also the only western country that still has the death sentence, and it has more people in prison than any other country in the world.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#397

Post by rmah »

MarkMc wrote: post #373
3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

It's interesting that in rich Asian countries like Japan, Korea, Singapore, the stereotype is of Tiger Moms whose parenting attitude is the polar opposite of what you describe. Perhaps taking a hands-off approach is more likely to result in well-adjusted, independent children AND children who learn and earn less.

First, the whole "tiger mom" thing is not universal. And more to the point, does not mean the sort of constant monitoring like in the US. In Korea and Japan (don't know about Singapore), independence in young children is highly valued. Many grade schools in Japan, for example, require that children go to school on their own. At six years old, they walk, take the subway, etc. Parents routinely send six, seven or eight year olds out alone on errands.

Japan even has a TV show that follows around little kids being sent out on their first independent task. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5k5XTZy0rA

Expecting and demanding high achievement is not the same thing as smothering children with constant monitoring.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#398

Post by marklgr »

kabouseng wrote: post #352
marklgr wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier To be frank, the article tips are pretty sound and well-accepted, including from specialists who deal with much more difficult children then you and me on a daily basis. First point, there's a tendency to see one's kids as special, be it especially gifted, or difficult, or an astonishing critical thinker for their age. It's quite understandable…

Please humor me, and an honest question. And please be honest. Do you have kids? How many?

One kid, seven. Got three brothers (the eldest got four kids). Most of my friends got kids too, some of them "difficult". For what it's worth, I was a pretty difficult child too.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#399

Post by mcv »

codingdave wrote: post #52
dom0 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you are only talking about schools (also in the replies) I take it that it is legal at home, yes?

Abuse is not legal. Physical discipline is legal. Drawing the line between the two is up to the court system.

According to other commenters, even belts and paddles are apparently legal. That is well beyond "normal" spanking and deeply into abuse. But in many countries, even "normal" spanking is considered abuse, exactly because it's so easy for parents to cross that line in anger.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#400

Post by jernfrost »

3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

I really dislike how American behavior is always equated with western. The US is just one part of the west. I think many of us in Europe have the exact same view on Americans and how they raise their kids. I am a Norwegian married to an American and I got to say American parenting seems claustrophobic and paranoid to me.

American kids are under tight and organized control all the time. They got their playdates, piano playing, soccer practice, etc. Their parents are driving them everywhere to all sorts of activities. These kids never seem to have a life of their own.

There are of course huge differences in Europe in how kids are raised. But at least in Norway kids tend to allowed to roam a lot more freely. It is more normal to walk to school yourself or be outside by yourself. Parents tend to not arrange playdates. They go over to each others house themselves. And a lot more of their day isn't organized in any way.

I saw this when studying at college in the US. American college students were a lot more immature than European college students IMHO. They seemed unaccustomed to having this much freedom, and not having parents looking the over the shoulder all the time. American college also felt very nanny like. A lot of rules and regulations as if you are still a child.

It is rather ironic that in the land of individualism and freedom, there is so much control and regulation on peoples lives. I think Americans have mistaken economic freedom for personal freedom.

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