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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

theatlantic.com

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#41

Post by RobertoG »

biofox wrote: post #4

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might…

What I find fascinating is that it seems that it's (maybe I'm wrong) a very recent development in child psychology, but it's used against us by the marketing departments many times every day.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#42

Post by [deleted] »

SerLava wrote: post #5

> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.” > The teen may be at the dinner table and just being quiet and not saying negative things. Well, when you're starting out, one of the positive-opposites can sometimes be reinforcing the non-occurrence of the behavior. And you just say, “Marion, it's nice having dinn…

[deleted]

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#43

Post by xbryanx »

If you're implementing the 'positive reinforcement over negative' approach into your life, it's important to trust the large body of research that demonstrates its effectiveness. Be skeptical of your own internal perception of its effects. I find that when I'm working to make positive reinforcement work, the outlier failures stand out so much larger in my mind. I struggle to understand that it's working in the long run despite my infrequent emotional reactions of anger, frustration, failure, etc.

There's some fascinating reading on the cognitive biases that are at play here in Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#44

Post by KaiserPro »

This is a yes, but.

You must re-enforce the behaviour you want, however you can't tolerate bad behaviour.

You are not there to be friends with your kid. If the child has hit you, sit it in time out.

Why is this good? A) the child learns that it wastes time, and b) it puts space between you and your child. reduces the chance of antagonising each over.

On the flipside you must take an interest in your child.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#45

Post by JonnieCache »

While this is framed here as a "radical" technique, it's just BF Skinner's Operant Conditioning, which has been one of the foundations of behavioral psychology for nigh on 100 years.

If you're wondering if it really works, yes, it does. One of the key elements of it, especially when using it on people, is accepting that the subject is likely to execute the behavior badly for the first few iterations, but you have to positively reinforce it just the same as if they'd done it perfectly if you want them to get better. If you can't manage this, and you get angry at them, you're jeopardising the whole thing.

There's a nice clip from one of Jordan Peterson's lectures here, talking about these techniques in the context of intimate relationships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VM1UA0pCMQ

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#46

Post by ktRolster »

KaiserPro wrote: post #44

This is a yes, but. You must re-enforce the behaviour you want, however you can't tolerate bad behaviour. You are not there to be friends with your kid. If the child has hit you, sit it in time out. Why is this good? A) the child learns that it wastes time, and b) it puts space between you and your child. reduces the chance of antagonising each over. On the flipside you must take an interest in your child.

It sounds like you are giving advice on a technique without actually having experience with that technique. Maybe you should try the 'no time-out' method for a while.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#48

Post by e15ctr0n »

manmal wrote: post #17
Dagwoodie wrote: post #9

This article is dangerous. On the surface it may sound good, but there is behavior so vile and harmful to the child, family or neighbors that never showing negative reinforcement is extremely dangerous with some children. It does have some merits though, showing plenty of positive reinforcement will likely reduce the amount of negative reinforcement needed.

Please quote sources to back this up. You are proposing the exact opposite of what the article says, because of what?

The concept of positive reinforcement to shape the behavior of children and animals comes from the work of B. F. Skinner [1], the world's most widely known and influential behaviorist psychologist.

Key Works

* 1938 The Behavior of Organisms: An Experimental Analysis

* 1948 Walden Two

* 1953 Science and Human Behavior

* 1957 Verbal Behavior

* 1971 Beyond Freedom and Dignity

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner

As an aside, this is the reason that it's important to have some understanding of the liberal arts along with formal training in math and computer science.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#49

Post by codingdave »

icebraining wrote: post #29
codingdave wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Child abuse is taken seriously in the US, and hitting children in schools with get people fired, if not prosecuted. I'm sure it does still happen, but that does not mean it is widely accepted.

"According to the Department of Education, over 166,000 students in public schools were physically punished during the 2011–2012 school year." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...

While that is a large number, it is less than a half of a percent of the entire student body of the USA. As I said, it happens. But isn't the norm.

Also, If you are going to cherry pick quotes, try the last 3 paragraphs of the Overview section, which talk about how it is not widely accepted, and the efforts to outlaw it.

Or, just this one: "Most urban public school systems, even in states where it is permitted, have abolished corporal punishment. "

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#50

Post by Buttons840 »

jessriedel wrote: post #14
biofox wrote: post #4

"Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. Having real choice is not the issue, humans don't feel too strongly about that, but having the feeling that you have a choice makes a difference. This was the main take away for me. It seems like it might…

I don't understand how people think this is honest. You're clearly using your cognitive advantage (or in the case of a boss, usually an organizational info advantage) to trick the other person. I remember as I grew up noticing when adults were doing this, and I resented them for it. Why would I want my kids to feel that way about me?

It goes both ways. If a boss says "do X" you may not have a gracefull opportunity to respond. But if a boss says "wold you rather do X or Y" you are more likely to be able to say "how about Z because...".

Granted, in a healthy relationship neither party has must resort to such tricks.

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