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The rise of never-ending job interviews

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Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#371
Technical interviews are high pressure situations that don't just check someone's technical proficiency but rather their ability to cope with pressure, communicate effectively while under that pressure and their willingness / unwillingness to ask for help or recognise their own weaknesses as soon as they realise they can't do something.

All are essential, day-to-day situations any developer will find themselves in. It's difficult to replicate that in anything other than a technical interview.

Having said that, tech employers don't hold the same power they once did. Decent developers with people skills know they can always find work or just make work for themselves if need be. We're entering an era where these guys will set their own hours and pay and the employer will be the interviewee.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to hear of these experiences because my own job applications have usually taken four steps: * See the advert online, and send an email/fill out a form to apply. * Have a quick phone-chat with a HR-person, where they ask about salary, history, and try to decide if I'm a chancer, or I have some somewhat useful skills. * Have a 30-60 minute interview with some technical people, in-person. * Optionally h…

I do research assistant work in biology. The best way to get one of these rare jobs is to email the professor directly. They then have a "chat" with you (don't be fooled, this is the formal interview!) and then several weeks later they get around to bypassing the Uni's hiring process and you get a job. I really am not looking forward to going through a formal interview process, because it will be so jarring compared…

Fwiw I also work in molecular biology and did a recent round of interviews (summer 2020).

Started with applications over a web form on the university careers website, then chatted over email with the hiring manager. Eventually got set up with some interviews with current lab people, and eventually the PI.

Mirrored in industry, although that was back in 2018. So all in all the “regular” route at least for this level of work in biotech/biology is pretty sane.

That being said, I’ve used your method in the past as well to great success, and is one of my secret techniques to get more traction when I’m looking ;)

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#374
post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that because this interviewer needs to run code to find logic errors, she's somehow not a competent engineer? Because I usually need to run code to find logic errors. Sometimes I use formal verification instead but that's pretty rare. Am I also not a competent engineer?

Does this reasoning not also apply to the applicant, though?

So, we can have an interviewer perform a possibly incorrect manual validation of an interviewee's possibly faulty code. Reading code is harder than writing it, and presumably the applicant has been asked to do something tricky.

Or they can run it, asking the real arbiter of truth whether it works or not.

Of course, "whether it works" is merely one (very important) metric of quality.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.kalibrr.com/sites/default/files/featured_images/... Every year, Google receives over one million resumes and applications. Only 4,000-6000 applicants will actually be hired — that's less than a 1% hiring rate. Given those odds it's not worth it.

These numbers are misleading af. Most of those applications are just spam, not really relevant and never get read by any human. I’ve done ~150 interviews for backend roles at google and based on my experience 4 years ago if you make it to onsite you have 5-10% of getting an offer

if you get onsite at most companies for an experienced position the chance is rather 50% to get hired. if i would know the chance is only 5 % i would decline the onsite interview at google.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#376
post #172
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL. He was obviously way smarter than me. He probably told his colleagues about how some dummy was talking about dinosaurs in an inode. I feel the smartass part of my brain eternally dooms me...

This makes me thing of the time I was interviewed by three bankers. I'd probably be rich and miserable had I answered non sarcastically :/

You have to say what happened

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similarly bad Google experience that I've talked about before[0] but will copy here: I was asked to do a task that eventually boiled down to a topological sort, and I thought the question consisted of recognizing that the answer was a topological sort and moving on because it was over the phone. However, that was not the case. The interviewer wanted me to code it all out over Google Docs, but I didn't remembe…

I once had an in-person interview where they gave me a sheet of printed code and asked me to point out the syntax errors. Some interviewers are absolutely insane.

Github PRs also lack syntax checking etc - so it isn't something you'll never see at work right?

(Admittedly if the PR doesn't build why are you reviewing it but whatever)

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#378

My one and only Google interview went this way years ago. Each round they'd send me more books to study, which frankly I couldn't be bothered to read given the circumstances. My experience ended when an interviewer in round 3 or 4 asked me an obviously scripted question. I answered sarcastically, he got peeved, and I never heard from them again. I'm not claiming I'm Google caliber, whatever that means. Obviously I'm…

You have to understand the context of the interviewers. The person may not have really cared. They probably weren't interviewing for their own team. They may have their head in the middle of some problem they are thinking about.

Google is hiring 10's of thousands of engineers a year. It's really hard to do well. Most of the questions are deliberately scripted because they are known to be good questions on some dimension.

So... work with them. Most of them actually want you to do well. Most of them are smart. Some of the questions are an open invitation to just talk and show that you can behave like someone they'd want to work with.

Your answer of "dinosaurs" etc, while the result of frustration more than anything, just said to the interviewer "not someone i want to work with".

It sucks, but you have to know your audience.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#379

What’s happening is that companies want to completely remove risk from the hiring process. In the real world, you cannot remove risk. You can manage it, but you cannot remove it. Asking candidates to go through 6 interviews before making a decision and not telling them when a decision will be made signals a risk adverse culture that cannot make decisions.

I find attitudes towards risk in hiring very strange. Many companies seem to treat it like an opportunity for massive downside without much thought to the potential upside. I think the downside potential is mostly less than companies seem to worry (an argument against me is that a ‘bad’ employee negatively affects their teammates too). I also think the normal interview processes aren’t even very good at filtering out those feared candidates.

Instead I think companies, especially large companies where small numbers of employees aren’t a massive proportion of spending, should try to see the potential for upside more. Especially in a world where everyone does a similar interviewing process, a candidate who performs poorly at those interviews could be cheap and an excellent hire who is undervalued by the market because of their poor interviewing skills.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#380

My one and only Google interview went this way years ago. Each round they'd send me more books to study, which frankly I couldn't be bothered to read given the circumstances. My experience ended when an interviewer in round 3 or 4 asked me an obviously scripted question. I answered sarcastically, he got peeved, and I never heard from them again. I'm not claiming I'm Google caliber, whatever that means. Obviously I'm…

Google is notorious for this.

I have been headhunted by them multiple times in the past. The last time their recruiter called me and explained me that after the usual screening and HR calls I would need to pass multiple increasingly complex technical interview rounds - and then THEY will decide on the role and project I am best suited for (if at all). I have flatly asked the guy whether they are being serious and turned him down.

To be fair to Google, though - their interviewing used to be first class. When I got into the first call sometime in the early 2000 or so, the interviews were difficult but with competent interviewers and no BS scripted questions. But that was because it was done in-house, I was talking directly to some engineer in Palo Alto over the phone. Even the HR lady was actually pretty technical and was asking me rather pointed questions.

Later on they outsourced it to HR agencies and it became "the process", with people being called over irrelevant/not interesting jobs (entry level sysadmin in Ireland once - even the HR guy on the phone recognized it makes no sense to call me over it ...) and the "we decide ..." at last.

However, Google is by far not the only company doing it. Microsoft's hiring process was very similar and Google's explicitly inspired many smaller companies or "less desirable" (for the candidates at the time) companies to ape this, thinking it is somehow a good idea.

This seems to be pretty much the norm in the tech industry. Along with attempts to effectively have the candidate redo all comp-sci final exams during the interviews - because "credentials can't be trusted", as someone told me.

Give me a break. It is high time tech companies should start treat (especially experienced) engineers with a bit of respect and dignity, we are not school kids anymore.

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