Software is eating the car • Hacker News Board

Re: Software is eating the car

#371

Post by ajross » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

joshribakoff wrote: post #360

moron4hire wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh, you don't click through a EULA in the car. You do it when you sign the purchase agreement. Do you not read those things?

Activating certain features in Tesla does in fact prompt a EULA (enabling autopilot, full self driving, and ludicrous mode all involve disclaimers which are legally EULA agreements. These pop up after you already bought the car, when you activate them under the settings menu for the first time)

Those are liability releases, not agreements over software licensing. In fact those features actually are sold legally as "parts" on the car you bought, there's no licensing scheme from Tesla yet. Though there is noise being made about offering a monthly license for FSD given that it's at $10k now and lots of people who would want to try it are priced out.

Re: Software is eating the car

#372

Post by eaa » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

kumarsw wrote: post #346

Once again, a plea for moderation from those calling for a return to analog gauges. Remember that outside of Tesla, automakers are generally pretty conservative and most computing in cars outside the head unit is decentralized MCUs that don't connect to the internet. And within the head unit, CarPlay/Android Auto has moved most of the work to phones.

Well, actually, with CP & AA there is more work, not less work, because they are perceived as an additional cool feature, not as a complete substitution to built-in "infotainment".

Re: Software is eating the car

#373

Post by eaa » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

kmote00 wrote: post #245

Someday in your future, you will jump in your car for an emergency drive, and the screen will say, "Updating. Please wait..."

And then trying to apply downloaded update and rebooting... in a loop. Or segfaulting. SW should make everything easier and more flexible, right? ;)

Re: Software is eating the car

#374

Post by worik » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

myshoesareblue wrote: post #84

vannevar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

You might like the VW e-up!/Skoda Citigo-e. Bare bones electric cars -- even the battery meter is an analog needle! Just has a plastic mount for your smartphone above the center console and a USB port. No giant touchscreens! Real knobs!

Yes I want one of those.

I did not know till you said how much effort Skoda is putting in.

My next car is in that line up...

(Prefer level II to level III automation tho)

Re: Software is eating the car

#375

Post by eaa » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

tibbydudeza wrote: post #222

CAAS - Car As A Service.

Can we have freemium CAAS? )

Re: Software is eating the car

#376

Post by sbierwagen » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #344

jacquesm wrote: post #181

Nothing worse than automotive software. Buggy, slow, terrible user interfaces, outright dangerous and in many ways much worse than the systems they replace or augment. The automotive industry has a long long way to come - assuming it will happen at all - before they can be said to be responsible software vendors. Case in point: my - former - C class Mercedes that made two pretty good attempts to kill me by slamming o…

I have a stock head unit on my car, based on QnX, I'm told. It has some amazing limitations. I will throw out a couple: First, you cannot delete radio stations. You can overwrite a radio station, or you can unplug your car battery, but you can't just flat up delete a radio station you have plugged in. CRU, I guess. Second, it sort of recognizes .mp3 files in the USB drive, but not .wav, and it certainly doesn't under…

I bought a car with an aftermarket radio that has a DVD player in it, which I've never used. When you turn it on, it displays a message warning you not to watch a DVD while driving. Sure, whatever. While the warning message is up, you cannot adjust the volume. I have to make sure to turn down the stereo before parking otherwise there's a solid five seconds on startup when it can't be turned down. Insane.

Re: Software is eating the car

#377

Post by johntfella » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:52 PM UTC

I've been exploring building my own car from scrap. This wsj sort of motivated me (1). The ideal would be no electronics at all. An issue I have with new cars are monitors, I hate them they are distracting. My eyes are pretty sensitive to computer screens etc. Maybe, I'd settle for just a radio. "Maybe" because you then get looking at a cd player then all the sudden you want the further desire to control what you listen to and before you know it you are talking about mp3/digital and more computerization/softwaring of the car.

The first question is... what do I want? The second is the more complicated issue of getting it done. However it has always been a dream of mine since being a kid and watching the Home Improvement sitcom in the 90s.

(1) https://www.wsj.com/articles/an-odyssey-to-recreate-a-rare-j...

Re: Software is eating the car

#378

Post by panopticon » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:58 PM UTC

iso1210 wrote: post #171

I have to admit I was unnerved the first time I got in a car with an electronic hand brake - certainly something I would not want if I were buying a car. Especially as there was a "Microsoft" logo next to it (presumably for the terrible in car entertainment system which was touch screen only) The encroaching of software into cars does remind me of the old joke though. At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates re…

Number 7 is also already true in some cars. You have almost zero gauges and just get an engine light when something's amiss. Then you need to use an OBDII reader to know what's wrong.

Re: Software is eating the car

#379

Post by betwixthewires » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #125

temporallobe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car guy here. Yeah, I’m with you. My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows. It had less than 100 HP, but it was simple as hell to operate, very fun to drive, cheap to maintain, and extremely reliable up until I sold it with nearly 400k miles on the odo. I put an aftermarket stereo and speakers in it and I was set. Only reason I sold it was beca…

> "Modern cars are absolutely terrible in the UX department, but they are a hell of a lot safer, so there’s that." tangentially, "safety" is highly cargo-culted. things that seem so obviously safer are taken without question as better, but in many cases, such features really only provide a false sense of security along with substantive unintended consequences. most safety features in cars (e.g., lane-keeping) allow p…

Most safety features are nothing like lane assist. Lane assist is not a representative example of what most safety features in a care look like. Most safety features are crumple hoods and pillars, safety glass, airbags and seatbelts.

Additionally, you think it is a more feasible solution to change culture than to make the safe operation of a car less reliable on the human element? How exactly do you "make people better and more attentive?" Training? Please elaborate on what that would look like.

Cars are designed a lot more thoughtfully than they used to be. An example not related to safety is cupholders. Remember when two flat rings on the dash were considered acceptable for holding a cup? Safety wise I'd say designing contingencies against inattentive drivers is thoughtful design.

Re: Software is eating the car

#380

Post by asdff » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

mavhc wrote: post #367

randcraw wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The features you mention aren't any more "smart" than an intermittent wiper is, which was invented long before electronics appeared in cars, much less digital logic. US luxury cars in 1965 had all the features you mention. They were delightfully dumb and simple to operate. That's what I want now: knobs, sliders, and buttons that move and click when my finger pushes them.

Do you want to pay more for them?

The market does. Porsche will sell you a stripped out version of the car for thousands more. Webbing pull tab instead of a door handle.