Software is eating the car • Hacker News Board

Re: Software is eating the car

#351

Post by holoduke » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #194

vannevar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc... The problem with that dumb car is that it is missing that very convenient feature. So you want a dumb car but with feature X, because feature X is really great. But the other guy will not care about X and will think it is bloat, but Y is really important, while for someone else, it will be al…

Post 2000 and pre 2010 cars are essentially Just like modern cars except without the bloated infotainment crap.

Re: Software is eating the car

#352

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

_ea1k wrote: post #317

abawany wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford has chosen to grant your wish: https://www.ford.com/trucks/maverick/2022/ - a real compact pickup with hybrid technology available at the base price of $20k.

That was the vehicle I was referencing. I was saying that this vehicle would have been a joint effort if the partnership were still alive. I could see Mazda owning the small EV segment for Ford too.

[deleted]

Re: Software is eating the car

#353

Post by AshamedCaptain » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

MengerSponge wrote: post #16

BigTuna wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind complexity but what I can't stand is having to access that complexity through touchscreens. Without the tactile feedback of a knob or button I have to take my attention off the road to see where I need to press on the screen. That's a major step backwards in auto safety, IMO. And don't get me started on the lazy manufacturer design trend of bolting a tablet to the dashboard and calling it a day.

Mazda doesn't get nearly enough respect for their work identifying and correcting this issue. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur... Touchscreens/touch panels are shiny, futuristic, dangerous, dumb, and cheap. Manufacturers use them because they lower BOM costs, at the expense of usability and safety. Vote with your wallet folks.

I am old enough to remember "Gorilla arm syndrome" talks.

People just love these big tablets even tough they are an ergonomical non-sense and they have always been for decades. Resistance is futile. Voting with your wallet is useless unless you enjoy the hermit lifestyle.

Re: Software is eating the car

#354

Post by holoduke » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

Goronmon wrote: post #233

CogitoCogito wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc... I think an extremely small minority of people who want a "dumb" car don't want those features. I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed o…

I feel like you're just making up a strawman here. It's pretty clear (at least to me), that the people who want a dumb car are talking about things integrating with your phone or being displayed on a touch screen. Personally, I really enjoy that with our new van I can listen to a podcast/music through Bluetooth and pause/resume playback through a simple touchscreen without having to fiddle with my phone directly.

Attach your phone to a holder. Buy a Bluetooth adapter from AliExpress and your good to go with any car

Re: Software is eating the car

#355

Post by atweiden » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #7

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

I drove an Electra Meccanica Solo in Victoria BC a few years ago, and it was exactly this. The founder of the company wanted to design the air cooled Porsche of EVs. All analog, minimal electronics, incredibly nimble. One of my favourite aspects of it was the sound it made under acceleration, think: Star Wars Landspeeder.

(You can faintly hear it over annoying background music in this video [1].)

It felt better to drive than a Tesla, even though it was orders of magnitude slower. Unfortunately, last I heard they were trying to tone down the Landspeeder-esque “cabin noise”. I’m not sure if the current executive team at Electra Meccanica even realizes what they have.

[1]: https://youtu.be/0eUlPeXL8wc?t=40

Re: Software is eating the car

#356

Post by bombcar » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

covidthrow wrote: post #95

quacked wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there are any. If you got to the point where you somehow managed to source the labor, materials, and space to manufacture "dumb technology", you'd be sued into oblivion by competitors who wouldn't want you to eat into their profit margins. I think the market is huge. Imagine a company that suddenly started selling all-metal consumer appliances with minimal functionality, controlled by old-fashioned swit…

The key is to hunt for commercial-grade appliances. In some cases, they can be found and offer similar form factors to consumer devices, and in others you may be out of luck. Commercial kitchen appliances, washers/dryers, and flat panel displays can be sourced to your expectations. Just prepare to spend 1.5-3x as much right out of the gate.

Note that commercial-grade appliances may have unexpected side-effects. I have a speed queen commercial coin-op washer and it's highly reliable and easy to work on, but you can't do anything but a full cycle on it.

Re: Software is eating the car

#357

Post by randcraw » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

zippergz wrote: post #21

vannevar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

1000% agree. I do not want a car that is a smartphone on wheels and I have no idea why so many people find this attractive.

I understand why buyers like digital novelties in cars: they're flashy and sexy, and they make your 4 year old car look old by comparison.

I also understand why car makers like digital flash: your 4 year old car doesn't support your latest iPhone, network, or peripherals, so you're motivated to buy a new one every few years.

(And of course, old car tech distracts your driving LESS, however that fits into the picture.)

I think we will never see cars with modular digital tech that can be updated. A car with replaceable digital hardware and software won't rapidly go out-of-date the way current cars do. They would cost far less to update than replace. So nobody wants it... except perhaps grownups.

Re: Software is eating the car

#358

Post by azalemeth » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:16 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #341

r00fus wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be they want you to buy their Pro item where the actually offer reasonable affordances? Most "pro-sumers" wouldn't bother to adjust what the auto-focus calculates anyway.

I'm not convinced about that. I was using those dials all the time as a 16 year old learning to use a camera. It's really easy - especially when you can set one of them to auto and just control the one you care about - plus so quick when they're on a dial. But I can believe no one wants to do it now, it's amazing how much a bit of tactile feedback can make a task 100X easier, and something you can do instinctively.

Tactile feedback and consistent UIs are great and a common feature (if not a defining one). I've got a Pentax dSLR -- it's got an excellent UI (better than canon's, imo) and their manual tweak focus adjustment & focus hold system does just work very well. It also has an excellent set of manual controls. A pity that nobody else has heard of them...

Re: Software is eating the car

#359

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

lamontcg wrote: post #276

_jal wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers tend to love it when their opponents think they've found a cute legal hack.

Most people don't seem to understand that the laws are interpreted by human beings that have spent their entire lives studying and applying the law. Particularly us geeky folk often seem to think that you can find a buffer overflow exploit in the literal wording of the law and the judge will have to let you go. That usually isn't how it works (although the odd case where someone successfully exploits the actual verbi…

So much this. Judges tend to respond very poorly to "but you didn't say Simon Says" style arguments.

Re: Software is eating the car

#360

Post by joshribakoff » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 10:23 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #325

Buttons840 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know the dark pattern of presenting a license agreement over and over until it's accepted? I predict one day someone will make the argument in court that they always declined the EULA (perhaps the one in their car) hundreds of times, but one day accidentally brushed "accept" with their finger, and that doesn't constitute legal acceptance, especially since they've demonstrated an effort to decline the EULA, but be…

Uhhh, you don't click through a EULA in the car. You do it when you sign the purchase agreement. Do you not read those things?

Activating certain features in Tesla does in fact prompt a EULA (enabling autopilot, full self driving, and ludicrous mode all involve disclaimers which are legally EULA agreements. These pop up after you already bought the car, when you activate them under the settings menu for the first time)