Software is eating the car • Hacker News Board

Re: Software is eating the car

#191

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #117

Koshkin wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If electric cars ever become widespread I have a strong suspicion that soon enough after that we will be able to build electric cars from kits, cheap and with no frills. We are on a cusp of a new technological revolution.

> soon enough after that we will be able to build electric cars from kits I'm skeptical. An internal combustion engine is a complicated, engineering marvel. But a complete engine, as a unit, isn't difficult to remove/insert. It's big, heavy and awkward, sure (so are electric motors and batteries), but an experienced person can do an engine swap in a couple of hours. And yet there aren't many people building ICE cars…

[deleted]

Re: Software is eating the car

#192

Post by notJim » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

numpad0 wrote: post #102

andrewia wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want the simplest car possible, you can look at models designed to sell in volume worldwide. I'm talking the Hyundai Venue crossover, Hyundai Accent subcompact sedan, Honda Fit/Jazz hatchback (recently discontinued for the US), Ford EcoSport crossover, etc. They are designed to be serviced in poor conditions. They will tolerate removal of electronics like the infotainment because some countries' base models ha…

It’s so wrong that tech inclined wants cheapest models for the reason that those are objectively better. The entire car industry is going to go iPhone all over again.

It's true, there are no tech people driving Teslas or late model luxury cars. As you say, there is universal agreement with you, because your opinion is the objective truth.

Re: Software is eating the car

#193

Post by dylan604 » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #74

jonpurdy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently bought a used 2016 Spark EV (having a baby and needed something other than my motorbike). It does have a touchscreen, but mostly for extraneous information and radio functions. Everything else has dedicated knobs and buttons. (The one dumb thing is that the fan speed updates on the screen, rather than just having ticks above the knob.) It is a California "compliance car", which means it was just a modified…

This is the exact same stupid thing that happened with DSLR cameras. Old SLR cameras had a ring around the lens for f-stop and another dial on top for shutter speed. New DSLR cameras even now hide all that stuff in a menu on the touch screen, as if it isn't something you want to change ALL THE TIME - and develop instant muscle memory for.

Which DSLR no longer has an aperture and shutter speed knob? I know the MFT mirrorless lost most of the controls, but did the latest Canon/Nikon really do this? My DSLR is eons old, so this is just baffling to me.

Re: Software is eating the car

#194

Post by GuB-42 » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #7

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

So you want a mechanical door lock, manual windows, no car stereo, no power steering, no thermostat, no cruise control, etc...

The problem with that dumb car is that it is missing that very convenient feature. So you want a dumb car but with feature X, because feature X is really great. But the other guy will not care about X and will think it is bloat, but Y is really important, while for someone else, it will be all about Z.

In the end, to satisfy everyone, you will need X+Y+Z, everyone will think it is bloated but you can't remove a single feature without someone complaining... As in, I want things light but don't remove my feature.

Unless it is custom made bloat is almost inevitable.

Re: Software is eating the car

#195

Post by _ea1k » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #20

MengerSponge wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazda doesn't get nearly enough respect for their work identifying and correcting this issue. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur... Touchscreens/touch panels are shiny, futuristic, dangerous, dumb, and cheap. Manufacturers use them because they lower BOM costs, at the expense of usability and safety. Vote with your wallet folks.

Mazda would make a great EV, but that is sadly not on their roadmap for the foreseeable future. I have been told this is probably an influence from Toyota's large share ownership, not wanting competition in that space.

I feel like in the old days, Mazda would have been the one to introduce a Maverick sized truck, and they likely would have been leading the way with electric.

Its too bad that the Ford partnership fell apart.

Re: Software is eating the car

#196

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

arpyzo wrote: post #48

zippergz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000% agree. I do not want a car that is a smartphone on wheels and I have no idea why so many people find this attractive.

I own a 2014 Subaru Impreza and my brother in-law a 2017. I've driven both extensively. Sometime during those years, Subaru switched from knobs and levers to a touchscreen and the controls are so much worse! 1. The controls on the 2014 are obvious, easy to find, and my choices are readily apparent. In the 2017 I have to search for them and often guess their meanings. If I'm actively driving, I just give up because it…

I have a 2015 Crosstrek. It is a great car.

The console is awful. Truly awful. Push the volume button within a few seconds of turning the car on to turn the radio off? Doesn't even register. Even if you give it a minute to warm up, it is half a second of lag on a physical switch. The touch screen has a half second of lag and requires several presses to do something as simple as switch from the radio to bluetooth.

Re: Software is eating the car

#197

Post by scarier » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

_benj wrote: post #99

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

I have a more optimist view about the industry being able to cope just because we have two more industries that have gone the same transitions, aeronautical and aerospace. Back in the day airplanes where just knobs and levers, and we didn't have the reliability that safety that we have today. With aerospace, I mean, software engineering as a discipline started with aerospace! If we write "starup code" (i.e. CRUD web…

I'm sure you didn't mean it quite so bluntly, but characterizing the history of aviation safety as a triumph of computer control systems over analog ones misses the mark by a pretty wide margin--even if we're just talking about the advances that only computers have provided. Probably the only way a modern car is technologically less sophisticated than a passenger aircraft is its inability to substantially steer itself (and this problem is orders of magnitude more difficult for cars than planes).

A lot of the systems we take for granted in our cars (ECU, ABS/stability control, adaptive cruise control, steer-by-wire, OBD) were pioneered in the aviation industry, and both industries' safety records have been massively improved by the ability to do digital design/analysis (CAD, FEA, CFD, etc). Then once you start talking about advances in computer-aided manufacturing and QC/QA processes, training, failure analysis, human-machine interaction...

One of my perennial frustrations with current tech is the idea that putting a computer in the control loop necessarily makes things safer.

Re: Software is eating the car

#198

Post by ngrilly » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

steveklabnik wrote: post #155

agumonkey wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh its funny.. of all the rust trend storm I cannot recall one mention of automotive industry usage (not that I imply it's not used.. I just don't remember hearing about that).. this is a place where I'd really love safer languages. btw any embedded car ADA shops ?

There are some rumblings of Rust in automotive, but nothing I can publicly point you to definitively.

Ferrocene, a Rust toolchain for functional safety, is explicitly targeting ISO 26262, which is an automotive standard.

https://ferrous-systems.com/ferrocene/

Re: Software is eating the car

#199

Post by waiseristy » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #185

waiseristy wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, sort of. It's all written in MISRA C and a very special version of the C++14 standard https://www.autosar.org/fileadmin/user_upload/standards/adap... Definitely still possible to write buggy MISRA code, but its the best we got unfortunately

A lot of modern ECUs are "written" in modeling tools like Simulink and then compiled into auto-genned MISRA C which is never touched by humans, as well. I'm certainly not trying to say automotive code is in a good place, but it's not the same as a 1+ million line hand-written C project like some people think when they see the numbers.

You’re right, but that code the generator pulls is all hand written by some poor shmucks at elektrobit or vector.

And personal experience, OEMs just love to make little tweaks to the auto generated code as well. Which is a massive pain in the ass

Re: Software is eating the car

#200

Post by hoppyhoppy2 » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #4

It seems that 'hardware' is eating the car, too. I want to just buy a small, slow, simple EV for picking up groceries and other city errands, for $5k-$10k. It seems like the only companies making that are the Chinese, and usually only selling them in China. Heck, it doesn't even need an Infotainment system - just bluetooth for audio and calls, USB-A charger port and phone cradle.

You can get an enclosed mobility scooter for $6k-7k. Many have some sort of stereo system and climate controls though I don't know if they all have your desired features. But they do exist and are for sale in the US and Canada.