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Software is eating the car

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171–180 of 549 posts

Re: Software is eating the car

#171
I have to admit I was unnerved the first time I got in a car with an electronic hand brake - certainly something I would not want if I were buying a car. Especially as there was a "Microsoft" logo next to it (presumably for the terrible in car entertainment system which was touch screen only)

The encroaching of software into cars does remind me of the old joke though.

At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated "if GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."

In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued the following press release -

If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics -

1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.

2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.

3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.

4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.

5. Only one person at a time could use the car unless you bought "car NT", but then you would have to buy more seats.

6. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would only run on five percent of the roads.

7. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "General Protection Fault" warning light.

8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.

9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.

10. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.

Re: Software is eating the car

#172
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently purchased a Kia Telluride. Perhaps I'm now biased because I love the car, but I think it has an excellent combination of tech and usability. 1. It still has buttons and knobs for the things that should be buttons and knobs (e.g. climate control, volume, etc). 2. The heads up display is the killer feature that should be standard on all cars (as is only available on the top speced Telluride). It displays spe…

Regarding HUDs... it's the one feature I desperately want for my next car. I've been looking into aftermarket options, but all of them are ridiculously cheap and bad or vaporware.

GM had HUDs in many vehicles 20 years ago. It's a shame they aren't more widely available.

Re: Software is eating the car

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I like the tech behind Tesla but am turned off by. 1) The large, distracting screen in the front of the car. 2) The subscription model of the car's firmware. If electric cars ever become widespread I hope I can find a used one engineered without that stuff. Otherwise I may have to stop buying cars.

I recently purchased a Kia Telluride. Perhaps I'm now biased because I love the car, but I think it has an excellent combination of tech and usability. 1. It still has buttons and knobs for the things that should be buttons and knobs (e.g. climate control, volume, etc). 2. The heads up display is the killer feature that should be standard on all cars (as is only available on the top speced Telluride). It displays spe…

> Unfortunately I don't think Android Auto or Apple Carplay's navigation can be displayed on the HUD - only the OEM Kia nav.

From what I understand Android/Apple have software capability for second screens/HUDs now, but it's on the car manufacturer to support that. There are some BMWs that have it.

Re: Software is eating the car

#174

the problem will be bad developers who write bad code that results in need of more powerful and powerhungry chips wich results in chip shortage the curse of the tech-age is capitalism needing cheap labor, wich results in stupid choices being made we seen this during the Web 2.0 era, bad/cheap programmers made everything slow, sluggish and resource hungry, bad code, always bad code it still continues today

This is true to some extent, but the biggest burden on automotive computer performance is actually safety compliance. Most modern automotive ECU's have an entire core dedicated to cross-checking the validity of the other cores execution. Protection against an extremely hostile EM environment ends up resulting in very low clock rates (150-300MHZ). And software safety mechanisms mean, at some times, 50% of core allocation could be consumed by safety related code.

Re: Software is eating the car

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car guy here. Yeah, I’m with you. My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows. It had less than 100 HP, but it was simple as hell to operate, very fun to drive, cheap to maintain, and extremely reliable up until I sold it with nearly 400k miles on the odo. I put an aftermarket stereo and speakers in it and I was set. Only reason I sold it was beca…

> "Modern cars are absolutely terrible in the UX department, but they are a hell of a lot safer, so there’s that." tangentially, "safety" is highly cargo-culted. things that seem so obviously safer are taken without question as better, but in many cases, such features really only provide a false sense of security along with substantive unintended consequences. most safety features in cars (e.g., lane-keeping) allow p…

For anyone wondering what progress in terms of safety looks like, give this 77 second video a view: https://youtu.be/xtxd27jlZ_g

Re: Software is eating the car

#176

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

One of our cars is a 2004 Toyota Tacoma with everything analog except the radio, and I vastly prefer it. If it just had a usb plug so I could play music from my phone, it would be ideal. Oh, and oddly, the radio doesn't have a clock. Bizarre. It I can 100% everything better than our 2016 Subaru Outback with it's annoying touch screen console. Plus my nieces and nephews are amused by the actual manual window openers.

Try popping in an aftermarket radio/stereo - you can get a nice Pioneer with a USB fast-charge port and Bluetooth/etc for ~$100-150.

Re: Software is eating the car

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car guy here. Yeah, I’m with you. My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows. It had less than 100 HP, but it was simple as hell to operate, very fun to drive, cheap to maintain, and extremely reliable up until I sold it with nearly 400k miles on the odo. I put an aftermarket stereo and speakers in it and I was set. Only reason I sold it was beca…

> "Modern cars are absolutely terrible in the UX department, but they are a hell of a lot safer, so there’s that." tangentially, "safety" is highly cargo-culted. things that seem so obviously safer are taken without question as better, but in many cases, such features really only provide a false sense of security along with substantive unintended consequences. most safety features in cars (e.g., lane-keeping) allow p…

> things that seem so obviously safer are taken without question as better, but in many cases, such features really only provide a false sense of security along with substantive unintended consequences

This is not true at all. There is definitely testing of cars by groups like the NHTSA and Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. For example, they've found crash rates were 14% lower on cars with blind-spot monitoring. Modern cars are far safer than older cars.

Re: Software is eating the car

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might like the VW e-up!/Skoda Citigo-e. Bare bones electric cars -- even the battery meter is an analog needle! Just has a plastic mount for your smartphone above the center console and a USB port. No giant touchscreens! Real knobs!

Sounds like something that will never come to the USA unfortunately. All new cars are required to have backup cameras as a standard safety feature, so at that point, the car company will ship the whole CarOS anyway.

I've driven rentals in Europe with reversing cameras, in fact my current car had it as an option (I didn't bother). They still had physical controls. Sure the screen is a touch screen too (so when the phone rings you can press green or red on the screen), but the button to select radio, or bluetooth, or whatever is physical, the volume (and off key) is physical, the radio selection is physical (both centre console and on the steering wheel). The dashboard is multiple different guages - there's an LED screen with selectable stats like 'time driving, average fuel consumption, current speed', but there's an nice analog speedo, fuel needle and temperature needle, and several warning lights.

I think the only car I've driven without physical volume controls was a Ford, and that was nearly a decade ago, I get the feeling there's been a bit of a push back, at least in the UK.

Re: Software is eating the car

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

never mind that when I'm taking a photo outdoors on a bright sunny day, there's no way in fuck I'm going to be able read your LCD screen. Never mind us older folks, who often have vision problems with up-close viewing, which is a solved problem when you can spin a shutter or aperture wheel by touch. But not when you need no-glasses to view the objective, but reading glasses to view the fine print on the screen.

I think backlit E-ink screens would be great for cars. I too want something I can see well in the day.

E-ink is slow/inefficient to react, so probably not suitable for speedometer and tachometer type gauges. Apart from that, I agree.

Re: Software is eating the car

#180
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know the dark pattern of presenting a license agreement over and over until it's accepted? I predict one day someone will make the argument in court that they always declined the EULA (perhaps the one in their car) hundreds of times, but one day accidentally brushed "accept" with their finger, and that doesn't constitute legal acceptance, especially since they've demonstrated an effort to decline the EULA, but be…

If I'm the dark pattern developer I'm not logging when the EULA is accepted or how many times they declined it.

I should think that owning a car for more than a few weeks without accepting the EULA could serve as reasonable "proof" that you had no intention of accepting it regardless of what is logged. Especially if the EULA is presented at every startup.
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