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Software is eating the car

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Re: Software is eating the car

#91

Post by jrwoodruff »

temporallobe wrote: post #82
SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Car guy here. Yeah, I’m with you. My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows. It had less than 100 HP, but it was simple as hell to operate, very fun to drive, cheap to maintain, and extremely reliable up until I sold it with nearly 400k miles on the odo. I put an aftermarket stereo and speakers in it and I was set. Only reason I sold it was beca…

Those mid 90s Japanese sedans were awesome. Relatively compact overall, zippy little 4 cylinders engines and manual transmissions. I had an Accord from that era, and loved driving my dads nerdy-as-hell Nissan Sentra. That car was shockingly fun to drive.

Re: Software is eating the car

#92

Post by jrwoodruff »

justaguy88 wrote: post #81
jonpurdy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently bought a used 2016 Spark EV (having a baby and needed something other than my motorbike). It does have a touchscreen, but mostly for extraneous information and radio functions. Everything else has dedicated knobs and buttons. (The one dumb thing is that the fan speed updates on the screen, rather than just having ticks above the knob.) It is a California "compliance car", which means it was just a modified…

I'm guessing that all-touch is just cheaper these days, no QA testing for all the little mechanical bits

Less design and engineering, sourcing and manufacturing of all that hardware too.

Re: Software is eating the car

#93

Post by iagovar »

dn3500 wrote: post #26
ArkanExplorer wrote: post #4

It seems that 'hardware' is eating the car, too. I want to just buy a small, slow, simple EV for picking up groceries and other city errands, for $5k-$10k. It seems like the only companies making that are the Chinese, and usually only selling them in China. Heck, it doesn't even need an Infotainment system - just bluetooth for audio and calls, USB-A charger port and phone cradle.

Yes, something between a $500 bicycle and a $20,000 car. The barriers may be as much regulatory as anything else. In the US all cars must meet highway safety standards even if they will never be driven on the highway. I think it's even illegal to sell a car with a top speed of 35 mph. There are some places, mostly retirement communities, where a lot of people get around by golf cart. They do the job and are a lot of…

Dacia has a new car in that bracket, but the range is a bit limited.

If you live in the US, Dacia is basically a Romanian company under Renaults ownership (which is a famous french brand) whith focus on cheap cars with proven tech. The use proven engines, parts from Renoult cars, etc.

A pretty good philosophy IMO but until now they had horrible designs, now they are improving, in the sense of adressing more general-public apetences, which means generic-looking SUVs.

Re: Software is eating the car

#94

Post by NoSorryCannot »

dn3500 wrote: post #26
ArkanExplorer wrote: post #4

It seems that 'hardware' is eating the car, too. I want to just buy a small, slow, simple EV for picking up groceries and other city errands, for $5k-$10k. It seems like the only companies making that are the Chinese, and usually only selling them in China. Heck, it doesn't even need an Infotainment system - just bluetooth for audio and calls, USB-A charger port and phone cradle.

Yes, something between a $500 bicycle and a $20,000 car. The barriers may be as much regulatory as anything else. In the US all cars must meet highway safety standards even if they will never be driven on the highway. I think it's even illegal to sell a car with a top speed of 35 mph. There are some places, mostly retirement communities, where a lot of people get around by golf cart. They do the job and are a lot of…

There is Arcimoto, an operation based in Oregon. I think in some places their vehicles are grouped with motorcycles or something along those lines. I've seen them zipping around San Diego and other places.

Re: Software is eating the car

#95

Post by covidthrow »

quacked wrote: post #13
mthomasmw wrote: post #6

Serious question - what alternatives are left for those of us who want a dumb car? I've spent the last three months finding out I can't get solar panels installed without a high-fidelity power-monitor tap connected to the provider's cloud, logging every appliance I use and what it's doing. Same deal with cars - they are on the internet and they generate evidence used to convict, and geofencing is coming. Other than s…

I don't think there are any. If you got to the point where you somehow managed to source the labor, materials, and space to manufacture "dumb technology", you'd be sued into oblivion by competitors who wouldn't want you to eat into their profit margins. I think the market is huge. Imagine a company that suddenly started selling all-metal consumer appliances with minimal functionality, controlled by old-fashioned swit…

The key is to hunt for commercial-grade appliances. In some cases, they can be found and offer similar form factors to consumer devices, and in others you may be out of luck.

Commercial kitchen appliances, washers/dryers, and flat panel displays can be sourced to your expectations. Just prepare to spend 1.5-3x as much right out of the gate.

Re: Software is eating the car

#96

Post by cbHXBY1D »

jrwoodruff wrote: post #77
SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

I'm pretty sure the TJ-era wranglers (1997-2006), and the Cherokee of the same period hit a sweet spot. Dead simple, no frills, durable as hell, utilitarian but not uncomfortable. Everything after that is continual bloat - bigger overall size, more luxury options, more technology in general. But that's what people want - luxury, comfort, safety... I get it, but I love the experience of my TJ.

I love my '99 Cherokee (XJ) for this reason. Hopefully it never dies.

Doug DeMuro explains why people love the XJ for its simplicity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3STMfI_PS4Q

Re: Software is eating the car

#97

Post by yurishimo »

myshoesareblue wrote: post #84
vannevar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

You might like the VW e-up!/Skoda Citigo-e. Bare bones electric cars -- even the battery meter is an analog needle! Just has a plastic mount for your smartphone above the center console and a USB port. No giant touchscreens! Real knobs!

Sounds like something that will never come to the USA unfortunately. All new cars are required to have backup cameras as a standard safety feature, so at that point, the car company will ship the whole CarOS anyway.

Re: Software is eating the car

#98

Post by rektide »

I have this weird feeling that we ought to displace the problem somewhat. I feel like the ubiquotous & pervasive computing people were onto something. And in some ways, we're already seeing a very narrow brand of this future arrive: Apple and Google both have systems to allow the phone to control & manipulate some of the car's infotainment systems.

Extending that idea further, & removing most of the native infotainment from the car, turning it into a bunch of dumb, wirelessly controlled displays & buttons, that an external system can use, would be interesting. Certainly there's still a large maintenance burden. And now we're talking about allowing external consumers of the car's services.

There is some precedent for this. Webinos was a very intersting ubiquotous computing platform, and one that BMW/Jaguar/Land Rover did a bunch of work on[1]. It definitely still kept the car's infotainment system, but it also exposed many of the car's systems & services externally, over a normalized, secure, webinos control system, such that you could manipulate the car's systems, or in one demo, look at the radar system, from remote devices. I kind of picture the radicalized form of this as, your car has some hdmi ports in it, and you plug in a Roku or Chromecast or whatever to power the screens, or have your phone wirelessly send a video stream. The manufacturer would still need to have an out-of-box experience, but in 10 years or whatever, the manufacturer might not have to still support it like they do a built in one: they still have to maintain some API surface, but that, hopefully, can be a simpler, more controlled, known interface, with less maintanence burden, & less fancy application processors.

I don't really think what I suggest saves all that much trouble. It introduces more trouble too. But starting to decouple computers, starting to untangle the weave, but it does seem like a long term more sustainable course of action. Whatever modern computer we carry with us is what we trust, and leaving it to provide an up to date experience across all varieties of screens, inputs, peripherals we encounter has always been, to me, what the ubicomp revolution was about.

[1] http://www.autoconception.com/bmw-group-research-and-technol...

Re: Software is eating the car

#99

Post by _benj »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

I have a more optimist view about the industry being able to cope just because we have two more industries that have gone the same transitions, aeronautical and aerospace.

Back in the day airplanes where just knobs and levers, and we didn't have the reliability that safety that we have today.

With aerospace, I mean, software engineering as a discipline started with aerospace!

If we write "starup code" (i.e. CRUD web app) for cars we'd still be in huge trouble, but if the automotive industry can adopt the redundant systems, enforce VERY high levels of software testing, and other practices for those other industries I think we could see some interesting things coming from the industry

Re: Software is eating the car

#100

Post by scythe »

jkepler wrote: post #83
quacked wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there are any. If you got to the point where you somehow managed to source the labor, materials, and space to manufacture "dumb technology", you'd be sued into oblivion by competitors who wouldn't want you to eat into their profit margins. I think the market is huge. Imagine a company that suddenly started selling all-metal consumer appliances with minimal functionality, controlled by old-fashioned swit…

Won't t 3D-printing metal appliances be more and more widely feasible in coming years? And, at least here in the EU, right-to-repair [1] labeling gives consumers the ability to more efficiently vote with their wallets. Its also happening in the US [2] [1] https://repair.eu/ [2] https://fr.ifixit.com/News/8748/right-to-repair

Liquid steel requires enormously high temperature and magnesium/aluminium require an argon atmosphere. Titanium requires both. So unless you're going to make everything out of zinc (assuming we don't run out of zinc!), this may not be the cheap fix you're hoping for -- and zinc isn't very strong.
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