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Software is eating the car

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Re: Software is eating the car

#71

Post by rootusrootus »

bobajeff wrote: post #12
SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Yeah, I like the tech behind Tesla but am turned off by. 1) The large, distracting screen in the front of the car. 2) The subscription model of the car's firmware. If electric cars ever become widespread I hope I can find a used one engineered without that stuff. Otherwise I may have to stop buying cars.

> If electric cars ever become widespread

Exclude Tesla and most all EVs on the road today are just normal cars that happen to be electric.

Re: Software is eating the car

#72

Post by NikolaNovak »

arpyzo wrote: post #48
zippergz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000% agree. I do not want a car that is a smartphone on wheels and I have no idea why so many people find this attractive.

I own a 2014 Subaru Impreza and my brother in-law a 2017. I've driven both extensively. Sometime during those years, Subaru switched from knobs and levers to a touchscreen and the controls are so much worse! 1. The controls on the 2014 are obvious, easy to find, and my choices are readily apparent. In the 2017 I have to search for them and often guess their meanings. If I'm actively driving, I just give up because it…

Worse, in the 2015 Toyota and 2019 Honda that we now have - if one of us listened to heavy metal on volume 30; and the other one is more of a mellow pop on volume15; they'll have to wait until the car turns on, boots, and timeouts the warning/license messages, before car will accept the volume down / turn radio off input and kill the cacophone.

UNacceptable.

And yet now the norm.

I'll do you one better - I'm hanging on to my 2004 Subaru WRX for these and similar reasons too :). I go through dealerships every year or two looking for replacement... and keep my WRX with happiness in my heart.

Re: Software is eating the car

#73

Post by nogridbag »

bobajeff wrote: post #12
SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Yeah, I like the tech behind Tesla but am turned off by. 1) The large, distracting screen in the front of the car. 2) The subscription model of the car's firmware. If electric cars ever become widespread I hope I can find a used one engineered without that stuff. Otherwise I may have to stop buying cars.

I recently purchased a Kia Telluride. Perhaps I'm now biased because I love the car, but I think it has an excellent combination of tech and usability.

1. It still has buttons and knobs for the things that should be buttons and knobs (e.g. climate control, volume, etc).

2. The heads up display is the killer feature that should be standard on all cars (as is only available on the top speced Telluride). It displays speed, speed limit, blind spot monitoring, lane departure, automated steering, navigation, etc. Unfortunately I don't think Android Auto or Apple Carplay's navigation can be displayed on the HUD - only the OEM Kia nav.

3. The "Smart Cruise" aka Highway Drive Assist aka Adaptive Cruise Control is essentially self-driving minus lane changes. It's engaged with a single button on the wheel and presented in the HUD. It takes corners smoother than I'm able to. I often feel it's turning too early and fight the auto driving but in almost all cases it's correct and my inputs are delayed.

Kia's mobile app for remote start, climate control, valet mode, etc. is pretty terrible though.

Re: Software is eating the car

#74

Post by jonplackett »

jonpurdy wrote: post #37
vannevar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

I recently bought a used 2016 Spark EV (having a baby and needed something other than my motorbike). It does have a touchscreen, but mostly for extraneous information and radio functions. Everything else has dedicated knobs and buttons. (The one dumb thing is that the fan speed updates on the screen, rather than just having ticks above the knob.) It is a California "compliance car", which means it was just a modified…

This is the exact same stupid thing that happened with DSLR cameras.

Old SLR cameras had a ring around the lens for f-stop and another dial on top for shutter speed.

New DSLR cameras even now hide all that stuff in a menu on the touch screen, as if it isn't something you want to change ALL THE TIME - and develop instant muscle memory for.

Re: Software is eating the car

#75

Post by xxpor »

mardifoufs wrote: post #52
e40 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This includes ICE cars made after 2018 that have ODB3 and send GPS, emission, speed and other data to 3rd parties. I googled for this and could find no info. Please give a reference for this claim.

> > This includes ICE cars made after 2018 that have ODB3 and send GPS, emission, speed and other data to 3rd parties. > I googled for this and could find no info. Please give a reference for this claim. I can't even seem to find any reference to odb 3 existing at all in the first place. So yeah any link would be very much appreciated

I'd assume they meant OBD3

http://straighttalkautomotive.com/articles/have-you-heard-of...

It's mostly about surfacing the codes via a screen in the car instead of having a generic check engine light and needing an external scanner.

As far as I can tell, it was never mandated. Most posts about it are from ~2011.

Re: Software is eating the car

#76

Post by iagovar »

MengerSponge wrote: post #16
BigTuna wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mind complexity but what I can't stand is having to access that complexity through touchscreens. Without the tactile feedback of a knob or button I have to take my attention off the road to see where I need to press on the screen. That's a major step backwards in auto safety, IMO. And don't get me started on the lazy manufacturer design trend of bolting a tablet to the dashboard and calling it a day.

Mazda doesn't get nearly enough respect for their work identifying and correcting this issue. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur... Touchscreens/touch panels are shiny, futuristic, dangerous, dumb, and cheap. Manufacturers use them because they lower BOM costs, at the expense of usability and safety. Vote with your wallet folks.

Does mazdas use rotary engines for ll their cars?

Re: Software is eating the car

#77

Post by jrwoodruff »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

I'm pretty sure the TJ-era wranglers (1997-2006), and the Cherokee of the same period hit a sweet spot. Dead simple, no frills, durable as hell, utilitarian but not uncomfortable. Everything after that is continual bloat - bigger overall size, more luxury options, more technology in general. But that's what people want - luxury, comfort, safety... I get it, but I love the experience of my TJ.

Re: Software is eating the car

#78

Post by hughrr »

bayindirh wrote: post #65
zippergz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000% agree. I do not want a car that is a smartphone on wheels and I have no idea why so many people find this attractive.

I drive a 2002 Focus MK-I, and I can use all controls rather blindly , just by feeling them. I hope to buy a similarly ergonomic vehicle when this one becomes unmaintainable.

2009-2016 Citroen c3 is a winner. Not sure about newer ones. Only computation it has is Bluetooth.

Re: Software is eating the car

#79

Post by jonplackett »

bayindirh wrote: post #65
zippergz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1000% agree. I do not want a car that is a smartphone on wheels and I have no idea why so many people find this attractive.

I drive a 2002 Focus MK-I, and I can use all controls rather blindly , just by feeling them. I hope to buy a similarly ergonomic vehicle when this one becomes unmaintainable.

Controls you can feel for seems to be a lost art. (Looking at you, Touch Bar.)

Re: Software is eating the car

#80

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

I'd like if the entire car "computer" was socketed and could easily be tinkered with, upgraded, or left empty.
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