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Microsoft's Linux Kernel

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Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#371

Post by shigawire »

acqq wrote: post #341
mtzet wrote: post #265

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-sourc…

> rather than trying to fit Linux applications in Windows, they're running in their own world and providing integrations into this world. It is effectively their way to have an "integrated Linux virtual machine" inside of Windows. The WSL1 on Windows was relatively similar (but not enough for me) to Wine on Linux. The WSL2 is in some ways "more integrated" than the typical VM would be, but otherwise still similar to…

I think you can do it all from powershell if you want or there are really only 2 GUI steps.

Yesterday I:

1. Enabled the Windows Subsystem for Linux option from the control panel

2. Downloaded Ubuntu from the windows store

3. Open Ubuntu and it worked.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#372

Post by jasode »

room505 wrote: post #364
jasode wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I keep seeing this angst over whether Linux will ever be ready on the desktop. Well, I've been using it exclusively for something like 15 years. >For most purposes, it has been ready for years.[...] Most people, however, could switch to one of many Linux distributions and be just as productive if not moreso. If "most people" includes non-technical users, I doubt they could switch to Linux without difficulties. E.g.…

I agree with this sentiment. I'm not a hacker, gamer or coder. I'm an architect who enjoys tech. I've used Ubuntu and other distros. The one thing that stops Linux from becoming mainstream for desktop use is software. Software for enterprises and software for consumers. The tech community doesn't realize that there is more than just office applications and browsers that people use. I can not install BIM (Revit) softw…

>I can not install BIM (Revit) software on Ubuntu for example.

Yes, a lot of Linux desktop enthusiasts only include "web browsing and email" scenarios in their mental models. Therefore, they are not aware of how the Windows os is an unavoidable platform dependency in many critical workflows. This perspective is why "Linux desktop exclusively" appears totally realistic to them.

A similar scenario to yours just happened to me last month. A land surveyor gave me some 3D laser scan point cloud files. (Trimble RealWorks files which are ".rwcx" files generated by the Trimble SX10.) The software (Trimble Business Center) to import those files only runs on MS Windows. I tried running it on VMware but the Trimble software required DirectX 11 so it crashed with an unrecoverable error[0]. Well, VMware only supports up to DirectX 10[1]. It's another example of "just run Windows in a vm" on Linux Desktop doesn't always solve the problem.

This also highlights another underappreciated and unseen difficulty with Linux desktops: You often don't know you will have a roadblock with Linux until you encounter that roadblock. It's not easy to predict your future incompatibilities!

[0] https://imgur.com/a/PRHnR4r

[1] https://communities.vmware.com/thread/608743

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#373

Post by emmelaich »

_ph_ wrote: post #234
emmelaich wrote: post #164

What's the bet that MacOS will switch to the Linux kernel within the next five years?

What would be the motivation for Apple to do such a thing? MacOS is already a Unix, with a BSD-based userland. Also, they are doing active kernel development - as in architecture development - to enhance the system security, so that even root cannot compromise the system. One part of this is moving kernel extensions into user processes thanks to the fact that Mach is a microkernel. They couldn't do that with the curr…

Not only can you do it with Linux, a lot is already done; with SELinux, apparmour, grsecurity, PaX, qubes.

They'd also save on kernel development AND get docker and a lot of other goodies.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#374

Post by fetbaffe »

znpy wrote: post #359
mtzet wrote: post #265

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-sourc…

> If the stack we care about is open-source and runs across many systems, then we still have the freedom. No we do not.

Correct, every spying bureau, organization or company runs open source & that probably takes away freedom.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#375

Post by gorio »

rbanffy wrote: post #347
mtzet wrote: post #265

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-sourc…

> I find it fairly easy to work on both Mac OS X, Linux and WSL2 -- but not pre-WSL Windows The thing that annoys me most on Windows is Windows itself. After using Linuxes for almost two decades now, the notion of the OS taking tens of minutes to self update when all I wanted was to quickly reboot it is unbearable. > I don't know how/if they're going to handle freeing memory again -- here the NT kernel really needs t…

I don't see how that is a specific problem. All operating systems have annoyances. But if you are for example an engineer you won't find a competitive range of software on Linux. For someone in need of doing software engineering a similar situation have been developing on Windows. WSL changes that.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#376

Post by paranoidrobot »

posix_me_less wrote: post #291
paranoidrobot wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What this ignores is that Linux driver support is generally fantastic, works out of the box in a way that desktop architects at MS dream about and is infinitely more current in practice since you go to one place to update all your software, including driver software, something MS hasn't been able to get right in a decade of trying. Generally, yes, it's pretty decent on first go and there's a nice default happy path…

Version incompatibility is expected, because Linux kernel changes a lot. You need the correct driver for your kernel. The amdgpu driver is a part of Linux distribution, your best option is to install it from Ubuntu apt repository, not from manufacturer's website. Which now explicitly and clearly says the driver is for Ubuntu 18.04 only - did you not see that?

> Version incompatibility is expected, because Linux kernel changes a lot.

Expected by whom, though?

I could understand it if it was major kernel versions or something like that, but it seems that a whole bunch of things are really tightly linked.

> Which now explicitly and clearly says the driver is for Ubuntu 18.04 only - did you not see that?

I honestly didn't. I went back and checked - yep, it does say for 18.04[1].

I have to say though that I wouldn't have automatically assumed it was ONLY for 18.04 though without it being more explicit about that. If the official drivers are available within the repo from now on, then it'd be great for AMD to actually say that. (I realise this isn't Ubuntu's fault)

[1] https://www.amd.com/en/support/graphics/amd-radeon-hd/amd-ra...

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#378

Post by scarface74 »

robertAngst wrote: post #361
mtzet wrote: post #265

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-sourc…

>In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-source as Linux, but it was good enough: Most of us don't want to mess about with the desktop stack. Who are you to claim this? The closed of…

As long as you some assume that there are no unpublished exploits in Linux. The Heartbleed bug was in open source code for a year and a half before it was found.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#379

Post by dsr_ »

rbanffy wrote: post #347
mtzet wrote: post #265

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-sourc…

> I find it fairly easy to work on both Mac OS X, Linux and WSL2 -- but not pre-WSL Windows The thing that annoys me most on Windows is Windows itself. After using Linuxes for almost two decades now, the notion of the OS taking tens of minutes to self update when all I wanted was to quickly reboot it is unbearable. > I don't know how/if they're going to handle freeing memory again -- here the NT kernel really needs t…

Send a hotplug notification that a region of memory is going to be disconnected. The kernel will stop making allocations there, and eventually it won't be in use. (This could take a while for a heavy system with long-running processes.) Then you send the hotplug physical disconnect notification. If it fails, you'll need to wait longer. If it succeeds, the host system can reclaim the memory.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#380

Post by scarface74 »

pjmlp wrote: post #275
dehrmann wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While people nitpick over what "linux desktop" means, don't lose sight of the fact that general purpose computing is slowly dying and being replaced by iOS and Android. Roughly as many iPhones are sold per year as desktops and laptops combined.

iOS doesn't use Linux and on Android userspace doesn't actually see it. https://developer.android.com/ndk/guides/stable_apis So it is meaningless.

True for iOS that it isn’t based on Linux. But iOS is based on MacOS and MacOS is real certified Unix.
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