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Microsoft's Linux Kernel

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Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#261

Post by nine_k »

crispinb wrote: post #223
meruru wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically it. I upvote things I want to go up and downvote things I want to go down. Off-topic meta discussions about votes should always go down.

Sure, I know what it does, I'm just not sure why anyone would use it. I never do normally want a comment to go up or down (other than the odd egregiously abusive or aggressive item). I may disagree with a comment, but that doesn't remotely generate in me an opinion re where it should sit in the tree. I don't think other people should or are likely to find a comment agreeable/interesting/relevant/insightful just becau…

A reason to upvote: "this is a good comment, other readers should see it sooner, maybe the first thing".

I see it as a community service.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#262

Post by rcarmo »

frequentnapper wrote: post #76

As an aside, which laptop do people here prefer for windows dev? I am split between Surface laptop and Lenovo X1 Carbon.

I’ve used both, and prefer the Surface Laptop to the X1 because the X1 screen and keyboard were garbage (blurry pixels and squishy keys).

I work at Microsoft and was issued a Lenovo, then got a Surface Pro 4 and finally a Laptop. Everyone in my team who got the Book instead is a little sad because it’s a huge lumbering beast compared to the Laptop and tends to be top-heavy compared to the X1s and Yogas we had. Those of us with Pros (tablets) and Laptops love the portability, even if you only get one USB port.

Also, all the Surface trackpads are MacBook-grade (although the software handling might need some tweaking for you to get exactly the same feeling - but I’m happy with mine now).

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#263

Post by meruru »

hrktb wrote: post #253
meruru wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One contributing factor to that statistic it that the phone lifecycle is a lot shorter than the desktop/laptop lifecycle. Also desktops and laptops are more likely to be shared between family members. The point is people still have access to and use traditional computers.

While this must be true for a sizeable part of the population, more and more people also don’t ever touch a desktop/laptop or only use the one at work. Unsurprisingly, the latter case gets truer for low computer litteracy adults for who investing in a decent smartphone has a better ROI than buying a meh phone with a cheap laptop. Anecdotally we bought our aging parents each an ipad two years ago. They were decent but…

In your anecdote, your parents weren't really using their PC before they got the iPad. I think this is true of a lot of people who are smartphone-only today. Android and iOS are expanding to a market that PCs never really got to.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#264

Post by goodcanadian »

gorio wrote: post #85
jdoliner wrote: post #6

My brain threw an exception when I read this title. Awesome that this is a reality though. Now that we have a Linux kernels running and accessible on both Windows and Chromebooks I feel like we can finally say: 2019 actually is the year of Linux on the desktop. It's not a meme anymore, it's finally just a true statement. Edit: To those questioning if this really counts as Linux on the Desktop. Yes, I understand what…

Despite the wording I don't think that is the original definition? The idea is to make Linux viable as a desktop operating system, and whatever comes with that. Not running Linux as an application on another desktop. Which is almost the opposite as in leveraging capabilities outside of Linux. Maybe more importantly redefining the goal isn't helping Linux much. I remember everyone raving about Android, but now look at…

I keep seeing this angst over whether Linux will ever be ready on the desktop. Well, I've been using it exclusively for something like 15 years.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#265

Post by mtzet »

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web.

In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-source as Linux, but it was good enough: Most of us don't want to mess about with the desktop stack. If the stack we care about is open-source and runs across many systems, then we still have the freedom. I find it fairly easy to work on both Mac OS X, Linux and WSL2 -- but not pre-WSL Windows.

The inclusion of a Linux kernel really seems to cause a lot of confusion. No, Microsoft is not about to remove the NT kernel. No, they're not about to supplant Linux. WSL1 did what the guys from Illumos and FreeBSD have also done: since the Linux syscall interface is quite stable, the NT kernel can simply implement these syscalls and handle them appropriately. The was that the NT kernel was still sufficiently different that the filesystem performance was quite poor and complex applications like Docker required more kernel features than was provided by just the syscall API.

Including a Linux kernel is really the nuclear option: rather than trying to fit Linux applications in Windows, they're running in their own world and providing integrations into this world. This means you can now run Docker on WSL2 for instance, but it's also complicated: Kernels really like to think that they own the world, for instance they keep memory around to use for later. WSL2 dynamically grows the amount of RAM allocated to the VM, which is quite clever, but I don't know how/if they're going to handle freeing memory again -- here the NT kernel really needs to communicate with the Linux kernel.

Anyways, the upshot is that no, Microsoft is not going to take over the world, but perhaps it will be easier to use a Windows laptop which supports all the stupid Enterprise software I need but still have a Linux shell for actual work.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#266

Post by goodcanadian »

Osiris wrote: post #88
gorio wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the wording I don't think that is the original definition? The idea is to make Linux viable as a desktop operating system, and whatever comes with that. Not running Linux as an application on another desktop. Which is almost the opposite as in leveraging capabilities outside of Linux. Maybe more importantly redefining the goal isn't helping Linux much. I remember everyone raving about Android, but now look at…

Given that drivers are Linux's biggest problem, isn't there benefit to leveraging Windows drivers and then running Linux on top of that virtualized hardware? I don't see why you couldn't run x11 in the window manager with the new Linux kernel in Windows.

Drivers are sometimes a bit slow to come to Linux, but it's been years since I've had a problem with any hardware more than about 1 year old. The community is large and talented and has a diverse range of interests. Some truly old and obscure stuff is supported. Most new hardware is supported with a reasonable time after release.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#267

Post by underwater »

mullingitover wrote: post #10

I wish Microsoft would release their own linux-based OS with a compatibility layer to let me run Windows apps. I'm not overly impressed with the direction Apple is going but I really enjoy a *nix-native environment too much to go back to vanilla Windows. It would change the math a lot for me if it was full-blown linux under the hood.

Why? This is a common ask, but what exactly makes a Linux kernel superior to Windows?

There seems to be an assumption that Linux is the ultimate in OSes. But most of the value comes from the large ecosystem and momentum, rather than specific technical advantages.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#268

Post by tjoff »

ndarwincorn wrote: post #173
jeremyjh wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are things that don't work well though, classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics. You'll probably run everything on the dedicated GPU which hurts battery life. Still, my old desktop scanner that the manufacturer stopped publishing drives for during the Windows Vista era? Yeah Linux runs it like a boss. No looking up drivers or config parameters on the internet…

> classic example are laptops that dynamically switch between discrete and integrated graphics YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3. This particular complaint echoes folks (I was one) who booted Ubuntu desktop a decade ago and couldn't get wifi to work, and proceeded to complain about shoddy driver support (to present day, clearly), using only that single…

I'm not sure how the bubble you live in came to be but for ordinary desktop/laptop hardware that is as false as can be.

And there is a very simple reason for that. All desktop PCs and laptops are sold with windows, if no support exist the hardware as a whole will not exist.

Meanwhile in linux land I still can't use my three monitors because displayport MST doesn't work with the open source AMD driver. Support has existed for quite a while, but it seems none of the five people on the internet that have actually tried it has gotten it to work. Just one of the many driver issues I currently have on a couple of machines with linux.

> YMMV, but as far as I know that's more or less a solved problem by default (for X anyway) with DRI3.

Just no.

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#269

Post by dmos62 »

inamberclad wrote: post #225

Embrace, extend...

... extinguish [0]

This makes me nervous. This is a win-win now, but who can say they won't just do what they do and destroy desktop Linux as we know it when theirs gets the traction necessary? If I were a nefarious assembly of MS execs, my long-term plan would be to use Windows' UI friendliness and compatibility to attract Linux users (embrace) and, when there would be a critical mass of users, extend MS Linux to break compatibility with true Linux (extend and extinguish).

What about the memorable MS exec quote "Linux is cancer"? For MS, Linux is cancer. For the consumer, MS is the cancer. Don't use their products. What's a company got to do to be shunned by the market?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...

Re: Microsoft's Linux Kernel

#270

Post by johanneswu »

mtzet wrote: post #265

This is really Microsoft catching up to the Mac in terms of integration with the open-source ecosystem which importantly drives the web. In the mid 2000's the Mac really took off due to being a good-enough Linux replacement on the command line, while taking care of all the hardware integration and providing a sleek desktop experience. This really helped the Mac take off among hackers. This system wasn't as open-sourc…

There is a technique called "memory ballooning" http://www.vmwarearena.com/vmware-memory-management-part-3-m..., which is probably also used by HyperV to free memory again.
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