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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#371

Post by whiddershins »

eropple wrote: post #365
whiddershins wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think just saying “this is broken in this way” has an identical effect to yelling at someone for being thoughtless? It seems you think one approach is clearly worse. But as a thought experiment can you imagine how each approach might have real tangible advantages?

It does not have an identical effect. For one, the listener has a reason to listen to you with regards to the former. For two, everyone else is not provided with a reason to pull the ripcord and avoid you entirely. I understand the point of view that yes, it may have advantages to abuse people for your immediate and short-term desires. The attempt to cast abuse as valid for those advantages belies the truth of a nast…

I think saying “this sucks” can actually make certain personality types want to really dive in and analyze their own thought process.

I’ve wotked with people who genuinely respond well to that kind of feedback. It seems you think one-size fits all, and fits every situation?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#372

Post by notacoward »

gambler wrote: post #358
notacoward wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have that effect. Here's an example from right here a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 Another example: where I work, I recently took someone to task for saying "your shit is broken" in a very public thread. It's a phrase I've seen…

I'm sure turning public forums into language/tone correctness minefields does miracles to encourage participation from people who aren't native language speakers and aren't keenly aware of nuances western socio-political background. Miracles.

Public forums are already language/tone minefields. Non-native speakers already have to understand the dominant slang and tone cues to interpret what the "natives" are saying, putting the burden on them. Using neutral language isn't that hard, and helps relieve that burden. I never suggested replacing one set of codes with another.

BTW, sarcasm is really helpful when dealing with non-native speakers. Your sincere concern for their well being just shines through.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#373

Post by eropple »

whiddershins wrote: post #371
eropple wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not have an identical effect. For one, the listener has a reason to listen to you with regards to the former. For two, everyone else is not provided with a reason to pull the ripcord and avoid you entirely. I understand the point of view that yes, it may have advantages to abuse people for your immediate and short-term desires. The attempt to cast abuse as valid for those advantages belies the truth of a nast…

I think saying “this sucks” can actually make certain personality types want to really dive in and analyze their own thought process. I’ve wotked with people who genuinely respond well to that kind of feedback. It seems you think one-size fits all, and fits every situation?

In a public space, which is the implicit context of everything we are talking about here? No. Because listeners matter, too.

If you want to tell somebody in a 1:1 "this sucks" when you know--know, not assume--that that is their preferred mode of communication? Sure. Fine. I think that resorting to such modes of communication makes you a lousy leader because it's important to train your people out of high-tension and low-value communications, but fine. But y'know what? Nobody here is talking about that situation, so table it and move on.

I won't reply to your diversion again.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#374

Post by rospaya »

mike22223333 wrote: post #317

I'm probably a person with not so great social skills. I'm a person of color. I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All of a sudden this movement to add "diversity" and other crap is just not right. I agree there is some casual racism/racism for the sake of racism in the community, but I am personally not even bothered and it has never affected me (I ignored them and they stopped and so…

This is likely the most ignorant comment I've ever seen on HN.

> Make a linux SJW edition or something.

If you aren't you should be dog-whistling for the alt-right. You'd be great at it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#375

Post by whiddershins »

notacoward wrote: post #333
whiddershins wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly believe you are misunderstanding Linus’ email. He is referring to overt white nationalists and racists. Like storm front types. You seem to be referring to subconscious bias, which seems to be literally an endless accusation.

I truly believe you are misunderstanding my comments. Linus himself might indeed only be concerned with the extreme "Storm Front types" as you say, but the topic for the last three comments prior to yours was the people who act offended by his actions. Subconscious bias is relevant to them, even if it's not to him.

You literally wrote an assertion regarding what Linus thinks in the original comment.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#376

Post by mikeash »

ethbro wrote: post #322
mikeash wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also why Washington and Lincoln were able to effect change. Wait a minute.... In any case, you’re missing the point. The point is that if you use someone’s incivility as an excuse to behave badly, you’re not doing it right. It’s fine if you don’t like them, it’s fine if you want them do change their approach, but if they push you away from treating people well, that’s on you , not them.

I'd argue neither Washington nor Lincoln initiated hostilities. So yes, both took a non-violent path until it could not be avoided. Furthermore, both had substantial popular support, larger political apparatus backing them (the Continental Congress and remaining US Congress respectively), and almost lost. I could care less about me . I care about the masses out there who are swayed by civility -- if you show me a pat…

My comment is all about “me”, specifically people who say they are pushed away from good behavior because advocates are jerks. If you don’t do that then I don’t think this is the right comment thread for you.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#377

Post by ken »

stemc43 wrote: post #10

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

True, we might all be running BSD today instead. Thousands of kernel developers might have spent the past couple decades improving FreeBSD instead. Would that be worse? Why?

Do you think other free operating systems are full of "nice spoken liars"? It's not like Linux is the only game in town.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#378

Post by whiddershins »

tylermac1 wrote: post #160
notyourday wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because me telling you that your code sucks is not being anti-gay if you are gay or anti-trans if you are trans. It is me telling you that your code sucks. You should either make your code not suck, or you can GTFO unless I'm lower on the org chart than you are, then you can do whatever you want, including telling me to shove it or GTFO and based on how I feel about it, I can either forget about it or GTFO. That's eq…

You must be insufferable to be around. Here's a novel idea, how about instead of directly resorting to "Your code sucks." we instead say something like "I think there's still some work to do here. Here's the way I would have done this." It's really not that hard to give constructive criticism.

You just insulted someone personally. Do you see that you did that?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#379

Post by sctb »

Something1234 wrote: post #118
chooseaname wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" Said every wife beater who ever lived.

Really, I've always seen that quote associated with "basic bitches," who demand the world, but give nothing in return.

How the hell did we get here? Let's please try not to do this.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#380

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

scrollaway wrote: post #354
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question I don't understand the word sometimes . I have yet to be shown an example where a woman, trans person, person of color, Muslim, or someone on whatever the oppression index is today was discriminated against when pushing code to a project. No one knows what you are unless you tell them - and it's always been 10…

> [...] was discriminated against when pushing code to a project. No one knows what you are unless you tell them - and it's always been 100% irrelevant to the topic of coding. Well, we're not just talking about commit logs. Projects usually need discussion, and depending on the environment, that might be one where real names, professions, photos and various other bits of real life seep into (or are a pillar of). In t…

> In those environments, discrimination can 100% be present.

Where? When?

Because this came about on Linux specifically, where are the examples of someone refusing code or discussion because of another's physical traits... -OR- is this all at it's very base an accusation that can never be proven? (edit: Because no one is going to come out and say "I shut down this conversation because its a bunch of just yammering")

I think the obvious specific example is of Google's Ted Tso who was targeted to be banned from submitting - and at the same time breaking their own new code of conduct by smearing him as a "rape apologist".

> Either way, CoC documents tend to be just talk.

I'm not seeing that here, I'm seeing deliberate actions. My example above, Torvalds letter here. Are you seeing just talk?

>Only recently, I tried to contribute to a project, only to be completely ignored and shut down without any discussion because the project owner didn't like my feature proposal.

So, you're saying you were discriminated against because of some physical feature or that he just didn't like your proposal? If the latter, isn't that kind of how it's supposed to work? It's his project and if he doesn't like your contribution you're sometimes free to fork it, or make your own? There is no right for people to like you or your ideas. The internet would not exist if everyone's ideas have been given equal opportunity.

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