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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

311–320 of 483 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#311

The "Contributor Covenant" is just the method of covert conquest of open source projects by people who have never contributed to them. It's possible to have a Code of Conduct without giving it the power to be a selectively-used cudgel written and pushed by people who want to do just that. For example, I think the Ruby Community Conduct Guideline is a great document: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/

I've never read Ruby's Conduct Guidelines before, but they look really well-suited to open source projects. Short, simple, to the point.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have that effect. Here's an example from right here a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 Another example: where I work, I recently took someone to task for saying "your shit is broken" in a very public thread. It's a phrase I've seen…

Listen, I take a huge exception to the way you said things. As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. In fact, your attitude is highly patronizing and condescending, the fact that you don't see it, is problematic. Linux Kernel was being run ok so far. Sure there were rants from Torvalds which went overboard sometimes but accept it as a quirk of the maintainer and move o…

> As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet.

Nor was I making you one. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out how language can affect different people differently. Surely you're aware that others do need and appreciate people who will use whatever advantages they have to help raise awareness of these issues. Please don't use your own personal good fortune to promote an agenda that prevents others from following you up the ladder.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#313
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell Linus's feedback is almost always constructive in that it generally points out precisely why he thinks something should or shouldn't that way. The problem is that he sometimes splices personal attacks and uses an overly aggressive tone which doesn't really help anything. I can somewhat justify using a very corrosive tone if you're not in a place of power and you want to be sure that you're not ig…

You are highlighting the false dichotomy that a lot of folks in this thread--and, if I'm being frank, not for good, decent, or ethical reasons--are piling in on. You can do something that makes people upset without being an asshole. It's really that simple. "No, I won't merge this pull request because of X, Y, and Z." Somebody's probably not going to be happy. But you have not needed to stoop to insulting them. You h…

I don't believe it's that simple. Many people have some emotional stake in the acceptance and quality of their efforts; telling them that the code they wrote won't be accepted because X, Y, and Z will almost certainly rub many the wrong way.

And what of questions about their process? I've seen LKML questions along the lines of, "This code produces many warnings when compiled; did you even compile it?" It's a valid question, if a little terse, and almost certainly insulting.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#314
post #92

Something I don't think he has internalized yet is that it's not about "politeness" or "cursing." It's about abuse , which is still possible while being polite and without cursing.

Have you internalized that cursing is not necessarily abuse? Linus has basically just being angry to people and cursed.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I consider fake it until you make it an incredibly dangerous ideal. That is how you get the Great Leap Forward, Banzai Charges, and Theranos. It leads to far too many delusions that become the seeds of downfall. Better to say in the case of Theranos state that the initial idea is proving non-viable but we have assembled a good talent base in biotech. We technically could liquidate the existing investment b…

It takes a special kind of motivated stupidity to project from Linus' statement to Theranos. Stop trolling.

Holy hell, watch the aggression. The person you're replying to is addressing the specific "fake it till you make it" statement, not "Linus".

Your post and attitude are completely inappropriate.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#316
post #106
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That email is just so Stallman. You have to enjoy his single-mindedness.

The world could descend into apocalypse and he'd still be typing curt dispatches about terminology from his libreboot thinkpad.

Strangely, that's a comforting thought.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#317
I'm probably a person with not so great social skills. I'm a person of color.

I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture.

All of a sudden this movement to add "diversity" and other crap is just not right. I agree there is some casual racism/racism for the sake of racism in the community, but I am personally not even bothered and it has never affected me (I ignored them and they stopped and some of them now are my close friends). When I joined the industry, I felt a bit unwelcome, but just in a months no problem was ever there. I saw that people had a different culture then me, so I just over few months I adapted the same culture subconsciously.

The maintainers should always value merit over "diversity" or "women in tech" agendas and other stupid similar things. We're not a playground for your political agendas.

My personal contributions have been blocked several times, but it never bothered me. I did what I loved, and my contributions were committed after trying for a few times.

Instead of wondering why my commits weren't merged and blaming on xenophobia/racism/fascism/blameism/bla bla bla , I decided to look at the patterns of commits that were successfully accepted.

Every community has a different culture so if you cannot adopt what everyone is following, maybe this industry is not right for you.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not always. Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten was when I was told that what I wrote was "crap". What's not constructive about that feedback? When people use the word "constructive", what they actually mean is "nice" and "won't hurt my ego."

"Not always. Some of the best feedback I've ever gotten was when I was told that what I wrote was "crap". What's not constructive about that feedback?" reply " No. Saying something is 'crap' may be true, but it's definitely not constructive. 'Constructive' feedback helps you understand why it's wrong. So, 'constructive' would be: "hey that code was very problematic, and here are the reasons why: etc. etc. etc.." "Whe…

It was constructive to me, anyhow. And certainly not counterproductive.

Sometimes people need to be reminded just how badly they screwed up, and to purposely avoid offending people is pretending that some work isn't crap. Of course words like crap are subjective; to the person reviewing my work, my code was crap, and that actually means something to me if they think that it's crap.

Not constructive? Nonsense. Sometimes you need language like "crap" to punctuate the issue. It got me to take the issue more seriously. If I tried to ship some really awful code, I don't need someone to tell me "Gee, Ravenstine, let's talk about this, m'kay? So this part of your code is... problematic." People the word "problematic" gets thrown around all the time, even when referring to very minor bugs in public projects. But words like "crap" actually mean something because they're reserved for times when you really need to know what you did was wrong.

I'm irrational, as are all human beings. Not everything I do can be treated as an engineering puzzle with a fixed set of inputs that yield a deterministic return value. You can tell a human being that something "doesn't meet the requirements" like they're some kind of robot, but depending on who you're talking to, you may get the result you want by not talking to them like they're robots.

This is definitely not to say that people should be uncivil, I find that sometimes a kick in the rear is very helpful.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could have taken a quote from 2012: " "...should be retroactively aborted. Who the f+ck does idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?" "

That is just super funny. It always will be.

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#320
The article literally quotes him out of context, then prints his full email showing they quoted him out of context, and hopes you won’t notice????

He didn’t call the Linux community “a morass of nastiness" ... he was referring to Twitter mobs.

How could the article get that so wrong?

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