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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#91

Post by asdkhadsj »

rectang wrote: post #30
asdkhadsj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux…

Torvalds' written communications are incredibly well-composed, full of information and get his point across well. On the basis of his emails alone, he's a "gifted communicator" in my view. Not everyone who is as logically brilliant as him can write like that. Despite that, I'm sure that when he says he's "not a people person" there's something to it. Maybe a certain difficulty reading people or anticipating their res…

That's a fair point. My comment is mainly in reference to my viewpoint that to be a good communicator, you need to both convey information, and convey a socially acceptable tone to allow people to ingest your view with ease. It's what make heated conversations (ie, politics, sensitive subjects, etc) hard to communicate about - the tone becomes aggressive and communication is less effective.

You are very correct, he is very good at conveying information. I think he's poor at placating people and handling people in ways that ease tension, lesson aggressive tones, etc. Great communicators need to do both if they want the information to be conveyed as effectively as possible - even though it stinks to have to placate/etc people, sometimes.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#93

Post by RVuRnvbM2e »

nsmith14 wrote: post #42
NikolaNovak wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds ... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S

You're not wrong. It means diversity quotas are being pushed and excellence is no longer pursued (or at least it's not the first metric).

No. Its recognition of the fact that "meritocracy" is a satirical myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#94

Post by zellyn »

nailer wrote: post #48
zellyn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course a Code of Conduct is a political document.

That's worrying, it shouldn't be. - Ethics are things the overwhelming majority of humans agree on. - Politics are not. Edit for 'edent' below due to rate limit: Were you replying to someone else? My comment mentioned the majority of people agree on ethics. Racial, gender, sexual preference and religious discrimination isn't considered OK in most western countries. Additionally, you're derailing the discussion by tal…

Anything that seeks to organize a group of humans is fundamentally political. A code of conduct that seeks to govern or guide how people interact is political. The de-facto emergent norms of how people interact _without_ a code of conduct in place are political. The way people organize and structure power and influence without rules is political. The way people organize and structure power and influence with rules is political.

Putting your hands over your eyes and ears and trying to be "non-political" just means you're accepting the de-facto politics that emerge. It probably also means they're working pretty well, for you.

Of course, none of that means that heavy-handed, oppressive politicking used as a weapon to increase power is good. There are at least two opposites of doing something badly: not doing it at all, or doing it well. I'd argue that you can't _not_ do politics, so you should try to do it well.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#95

Post by chooseaname »

cirgue wrote: post #84
werid wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. Doesn't sound like you actually supported the cause if you can be pushed away from it like that.

"If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" is a load of nonsense in any context, and doubly so in politics.

> "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best"

Said every wife beater who ever lived.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#97

Post by simias »

Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

There will always be garbage people in "your camp", whatever that camp might be. Hell, for some people in "your camp" you'll be the nasty one.

The big problem with the internet and modern social networks is that they suck at filtering the noise and getting the interesting bits. In the end if we're not careful we only hear those who shout the loudest and most provocative things. A well researched essay on gender studies will have a hard time getting traction, however a single "I drink white male tears" tweet is sure to get a ton of attention from people on either of the fence even though it's effectively void of meaning.

My solution is to spend less time focusing on people and more time focusing on ideas. You'll find that the vast majority of people are vastly less extreme than what twitter and reddit would have you believe.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#98

Post by mfrw »

tl;dr

> "Will everybody be happy? No. People who don't like my blunt behaviour even when I'm not being actively nasty about it will just see that as 'look, nothing changed'. I'm trying to get rid of my outbursts, and be more polite about things, but technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#99

Post by yosefzeev »

krapp wrote: post #90
yosefzeev wrote: post #88

I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for alternatives that understand the division between spiritual beliefs and "forced agreement with an assertion by participation" that uses religious terminology that has quite a different meaning to…

>I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. A "hacker ethos" is a political belief.

It is but you don't need an OS to define it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#100

Post by gambler »

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing.

And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make institutional changes to signal that they - personally - arent's "the disgusting underbelly of the internet". Pause and think about it.

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