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Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#81

Post by RoyTyrell »

elorant wrote: post #53
rectang wrote: post #4

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

A community of programmers isn't the same as a community of average Joes. Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment. That is why you can be harsh and still get the message through. Trying doing that in the general public though won't work. If you notice politicians always talk to the public like they're imbeciles. Short, easy to remember messages without a lot of technicalities. Quite the opposite of the…

I don't know, I find a lot of engineers to actually be really sensitive. Confident and nice people can hold their ground and maintain civility in a disagreement without devolving into name-calling, questioning someone's character, or question someone's abilities because they don't agree on how to implement a process (be it in software, hardware, or something more mechanical).

Adding a large ego onto being sensitive makes for a very unpleasant and volatile combination. It causes them to take disagreement personally and then it becomes a religious discussion along the lines of vim vs emacs (obviously vim is superior and if you think otherwise, go back to sociology you moron). I think Linus is just like that.

That's my two bits.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#82

Post by raxxorrax »

zellyn wrote: post #37
DC-3 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wrote a very brief email. https://i.redd.it/1lbta0g910n11.png

That email is just so Stallman. You have to enjoy his single-mindedness.

Very true. That makes the mail kind of redundant.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#83

Post by simias »

nailer wrote: post #15

I remember looking at Linux's angrier style maybe 15 years ago (I would have been 22) and not being bothered. Someone made a stupid mistake and was getting a bollocking. Looking at it as a 37 year old last week, I'm surprised a grown man needed to be so aggressive. You can destroy the opinion or the behavior using reason without the aggression, which distracts. I like that Linux is changing this, though I do have con…

>I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes

I can sort-of understand this stance if we were talking about FreeBSD for instance (which suffered a similar controversy not long ago) but we're talking about a GPL-licensed codebase here. The GPL is far more political than this CoC we're talking about. You can disagree with it of course, but the mere fact that it's political shouldn't be a problem on its own.

Also I remind the people browsing this thread that a downvote is not a "I disagree" button, I see plenty of "greyed" comments (like the one I'm replying to currently) that IMO do not warrant downvoting.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#84

Post by cirgue »

werid wrote: post #73
Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

> However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. Doesn't sound like you actually supported the cause if you can be pushed away from it like that.

"If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" is a load of nonsense in any context, and doubly so in politics.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#85

Post by RVuRnvbM2e »

> Because I may have my reservations about excessive political correctness, but honestly, I absolutely do not want to be seen as being in the same camp as the low-life scum on the internet that think it's OK to be a white nationalist Nazi, and have some truly nasty misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic behaviour. And those people were complaining about too much political correctness too, and in the process just making my public stance look bad.

> ...

> But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing.

So the obnoxious Manosphere who are the most (only?) vocal critics of the new CoC forced his hand in the first place. How fittingly ironic.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#86

Post by SolaceQuantum »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #71
alfredmuffin wrote: post #49

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST "). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

You can communicate directly without also being insulting. You don't need to literally feel what other people are feeling (empathy) to not go out of your way to make people feel bad about themselves. I don't think there's a concern with 'Linus didn't wish everyone a good morning/didn't compliment so-and-so's code while suggesting changes' but with 'Linus insulted people to their face'. The former is cuddly, the latter is politeness.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#87

Post by tomlock »

yashap wrote: post #72
tomlock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you personally, in real life, encountered many people who were "outraged" by you using he/she?

In “real life,” no, but on the internet, yes.

So my assumption then since you've said "many on the left" fly to outrage too easily, is that you don't know many people in real life who are on the left. Is that accurate?

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#88

Post by yosefzeev »

I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos.

I will be keeping my eyes peeled for alternatives that understand the division between spiritual beliefs and "forced agreement with an assertion by participation" that uses religious terminology that has quite a different meaning to me. So far, hurd and is promising.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#89

Post by mikeash »

Vinnl wrote: post #64

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and t…

I wish people would stop being so concerned about what other people think. If treating people well is the right thing to do, then do it. If people are nasty when they try to make you treat people well, ignore them.

When people say that they wanted to do the right thing but got pushed away because the advocates were jerks, that just sounds like an excuse.

That’s not to say that it’s ok to be a jerk just because you’re telling people to do the right thing. I’m just tired of this line people like to pull out of, it’s not my fault I’m hurting the vulnerable, those SJW jerks made me do it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

#90

Post by krapp »

yosefzeev wrote: post #88

I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for alternatives that understand the division between spiritual beliefs and "forced agreement with an assertion by participation" that uses religious terminology that has quite a different meaning to…

>I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos.

A "hacker ethos" is a political belief.

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