Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 789 posts

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#361

Post by echoangle »

keiferski wrote: post #293
_fat_santa wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.

> Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU.

Maybe the ones voluntarily offered by companies, but not the legal ones.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#362

Post by throw1234567891 »

ed_balls wrote: post #256
puszczyk wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right, of course, but in most jurisdictions the limit is lower than 25k EUR (e.g. in PL it's 5k PLN ~ 1.2k EUR; I believe in the UK it's even less), and you can trivially look up the capital of any business in the business registry online --> you can decide if you are dealing with a multi-million behemoth or a mom-and-pop shop.

Unless it's c-corporate which require 25k usd. Money don't have to sit in bank account, you can buy a laptop etc.

In Germany the 25k Euro also does not need to sit in the account, after you reach it.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#363

Post by thedrbrian »

> And no, I could not just leave instead. My first company, Freshflow, is valuable enough that walking out of Germany would trigger a massive six-figure exit tax

Something is wrong here if you will be liable for at least a hundred grand of exit but balk over 25k to start a new company.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#364

Post by carlosjobim »

Sweepi wrote: post #61
throwaway15805 wrote: post #21

Been there too. Paying thousands of € for a notary just to read some text you wrote out loud to you is absurd. The cherry on top is the exit tax: > And no, I could not just leave instead. My first company, Freshflow, is valuable enough that walking out of Germany would trigger a massive six-figure exit tax, on gains I have not even realised, purely for the privilege of leaving. This is ostensibly there to prevent lar…

Maybe I am missing the point, but what is the alternative? You found a company in Germany, dont realize your gains, therefore dont pay taxes, then leave the country, realize your gains, and still dont pay taxes? Why should Germany or any other country allow this?

As long as Germany and other countries allow foreign companies to do business with their subjects, then foreign companies will be at advantage to domestic companies because of the exit tax.

If they want to be strict about it, they should only allow German companies to do business with German subjects. Then there wouldn't be an advantage to foreign companies.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#365

Post by quadrifoliate »

weinzierl wrote: post #126

Not to defend German bureaucracy but if you are serious and want results this is not how you do it. If you want a GmbH quickly there are specialized lawyers that maintain a pool of freshly founded GmbH's for you to buy. Everything is set up for you to start. If you don't like certain things like the company name, you can always change it later. That being said, I know plenty of people who founded their GmbH themselve…

> If you want a GmbH quickly there are specialized lawyers that maintain a pool of freshly founded GmbH's for you to buy.

The fact that this absurd situation exists is a huge proof that the bureaucracy has gotten out of hand and that Germany is unfriendly to starting new businesses.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#366

Post by jandrewrogers »

arjie wrote: post #228
Aurornis wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starting out a company as a UG & Co KG is a tax optimization move, not a liability issue Thanks for the clarification. However I’m still surprised that tax optimization is also considered a footnote in these conversations. In the countries I’m familiar with (mostly the US, minor second-hand experience with friends in some other countries as they started their businesses) starting a limited liability business ventur…

When I first started my company I half assed it. The LLC was quick and the EIN took two weeks. I accidentally signed a contract with my name instead of the company and elected to be a sole proprietorship. These are all the worst ways tax-wise to do this. By Nov that year I decided to look into the tax implications and they were unpleasant so I wrote the IRS asking to be considered an S corp from the beginning of the…

My interactions with the IRS have always been reasonable and pragmatic. If you make a mistake they try to be accommodating to help you fix it.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#367

Post by 9dev »

keiferski wrote: post #293
_fat_santa wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU. I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.

Is that so? In Germany for example, you have a legal right to return anything you purchased via a remote means of communication - so e.g., the internet, or a phone call - free of charge, within two weeks, and it must be simple to do so; if a vendor tries to obfuscate how to cancel a purchase contract, you can simply write them an email.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#368

Post by quadrifoliate »

Archelaos wrote: post #195

The authors claim that he spent "9,600 euros to start a company" is misleading. Since he wants to reduce his liabiliy and therefore the risk of his customers as much as possible, he opted for a complex solution that involved founding two joined companies. In addition, he counted 2,000 € of shared capital as an expense, which it isn't. He did not opt for a "cheap" UG which requires no up-front capital, because of its…

Do you understand why the notary fees are €1,575.24? That's astonishingly high for (I presume) a couple hours of work at most.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#369

Post by wavemode »

coffeebeqn wrote: post #321
Zak wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

> sometimes shit happens and debts go unpaid What’s wild is that this is pre-debt. The banks will have their own risk math for you so it’ll be a completely separate set of hoops before you get to be in debt as a company. Most will not even talk to you if you have 0€ in the business account. I don’t feel like a company with no assets or income can do that much damage to their societies. Also as a small company in the…

There are ways to go into debt without dealing with banks. Any time you use something and are charged afterwards, it's a debt (which you could fail to pay by being broke by the time the invoice arrives). Common example - rent/lease. Or gas/electricity.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#370

Post by throw1234567891 »

hypendev wrote: post #354
FLHerne wrote: post #51

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. > And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH The post itself explains exactly why the first complaint is a fallacy and the second one is tru…

That system is silly. I can open a company, work for a year, acrue debt, acrue tax debt, close it. Nothing will happen. Company "estate" will be sold to cover the debt, which can also be nothing.

[dead]
Post reply on HN