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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#351

Post by dns_snek »

WarmWash wrote: post #286
DANmode wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Your question is more well formed if you challenge the premise that the tax you owe should scale linearly with the value of your assets. Obviously a business benefits from things the state provides, and the business should pay it's share to cover those costs. Maybe, honestly, even a little extra. The challenge is if someone makes a software company, and a team of 20 workers on computers create a €10B business, does t…

> does the state have a fair claim to €5B of it when the company at most with the most generous possible estimate (and then double it for good measure) used €50M of state services?

Yes, it does. Quite simply because that's the law, and it's morally right (in principle) because if your business fails then you don't get a bill for 50 million. If "winners" only paid their exact share then these services wouldn't exist.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#352

Post by ExpertAdvisor01 »

eqvinox wrote: post #292
earcar wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe there was an issue with the "place of effective management" or perhaps the company address not being in your federal state.

You probably would've needed to get an address there somehow, yes. There's services that do that for you, the non-shady ones being provided by lawyers and notaries. [ed.: a tiny office in Leipzig is pretty cheap too, but you'd need to ensure mail doesn't pile up there unchecked.] Unfortunately I'm not joking about this entire thing. Berlin's underfunded, overstressed bureaucracy is to be avoided like the plague. [ed.…

You need to demonstrate real substance (such as actually managing/working from there e.g in your case Leipzig ) . If you can't prove real substance they will just shift it back to berlin and you could be also held liable for tax evasion (if there is a lower gewerbehebel )

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#353

Post by sam_lowry_ »

Zak wrote: post #274
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> A company that starts with nothing wouldn't be a GmbH (limited liability company), it would be a GoH (company without liability), and there's a good reason why those don't exist... Those do exist in other countries. An LLC in the USA does not generally need to have a certain amount of assets. Such a company is more or less without liability until it has some assets; the worst case for its owners when it comes to a…

[flagged]

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#354

Post by hypendev »

FLHerne wrote: post #51

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. > And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH The post itself explains exactly why the first complaint is a fallacy and the second one is tru…

That system is silly.

I can open a company, work for a year, acrue debt, acrue tax debt, close it.

Nothing will happen. Company "estate" will be sold to cover the debt, which can also be nothing.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#355

Post by sscaryterry »

Aloha wrote: post #205
dghlsakjg wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. No. You’re thinking of Arizona Iced Tea, which is a New York corporation.

Arizona Iced Tea at least nominally includes ‘tea’

I thought tea was for the British?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#356

Post by eecc »

nradov wrote: post #240
atsjie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't dislike that they at least want to see you in real life once tbh. I love ease of registration like anyone else, but with tax avoidance and all that, idk. Feels right to me to have at least seen yourself once.

But is it really you?

Well, they ask for proof such as a valid passport or id card.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#357

Post by echoangle »

logifail wrote: post #299
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> The 25,000 is there to make sure you can cover some liability I would suggest that this idea of a GmbH does not actually work the way you think it does. Maybe it once did, but not any more. For instance: Wirecard Technologies GmbH Wirecard Sales International Holding GmbH Wirecard Acquiring & Issuing GmbH Wirecard Acceptance Technologies GmbH Much of the regulatory structures in Europe work this way, they assume th…

Im pretty sure those wirecard companies all had the mandatory money in the account. They just did more damage than that.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#358

Post by tomschwiha »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #262
tomschwiha wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Founder wage is a company purpose, else it wouldn't be allowed. Its not your personal money anymore once deposited into the companies account.

Yes, afaik you can pay out founder wages with Stammkapital. However, it has to be actual wages, i.e., the founder has to do work in return for a salary, and the salary has to be reasonable. You can't just have the GmbH pay you back the money you put into the company. There are also other limitations ( https://dejure.org/gesetze/GmbHG/30.html ), but that's the main one.

The difference is shareholder (=Gesellschafter) and ceo (=Geschäftführer). They may be the same person. So paying wages for the work as Geschäftsführer is fine (reasonable amount, taxes, etc), paying out money for being a Gesellschafter is not.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#359

Post by eagleal »

fakedang wrote: post #217
ExpertAdvisor01 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't incorporate somewhere else it will only lead to disaster. The company will end up being German tax resident anyways due to management and control being in Germany as you live in Germany . Then you have to be compliant in 2 jurisdictions (file forms/balance sheets in both countries etc..) and worst case you could become subject to double taxation (if there is no agreement). The optimal solution is just to leave…

Can't you just incorporate a Wyoming LLC (zero corporate tax + federal tax because you're non-resident in the US) then just open a Wise account? Wyoming LLC gives passthrough taxation, and because you're in Germany, you'll be subject to German corporate and personal taxes alone, I presume? Edit: changed from just personal tax to personal+corporate

Do not know Germany's specific tax code, but in most EU countries should a control fire up it would result in tax evasion (not even tax avoidance), as in this case Germany can easily demonstrate the center of control is in fact in Germany.

Especially as you will have to file tax forms and disclosures for your salary.

You guys might want to take a consultation with a proper accountant/tax advisor for these setups.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#360

Post by 9dev »

logifail wrote: post #299
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> The 25,000 is there to make sure you can cover some liability I would suggest that this idea of a GmbH does not actually work the way you think it does. Maybe it once did, but not any more. For instance: Wirecard Technologies GmbH Wirecard Sales International Holding GmbH Wirecard Acquiring & Issuing GmbH Wirecard Acceptance Technologies GmbH Much of the regulatory structures in Europe work this way, they assume th…

I don't know what that example is supposed to prove? Everyone in a business relation with one of these companies can make claims against them. The problem with Wirecard is rather that the 25k of each of them aren't going to make up for the massive damage caused by Marsalek. Then again, I don't think we should structure our systems to expect the blackest of swans that guy was.

The 25k are intended to ensure liability coverage for very small and young companies, not giant corporate networks with billions in backing (well, theoretically anyway... hah)

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