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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#291

Post by arethuza »

notpushkin wrote: post #232
arethuza wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I co-founded a company in the UK in 1995 there were two £1 shares - one for each founder. Mind you it was an off the shelf company - but the process couldn't really be much simpler back then - and its probably a lot simpler now.

You can open an Estonian company with 0.01 € capital. It will look ridiculous in the registry, and you will still be liable for the remaining 2499.99 € personally anyway, but it is possible. I’ve seen a couple 100 € companies, which is more reasonable I guess. You can also declare that you’ve paid the capital in, without any proof required for small amounts (up to 50k € IIRC). If you lie about it, I suppose you’ll be…

That sounds a bit like the UK concept of a Company Limited by Guarantee - which is used by a lot of charities.

Edit: I'm not a lawyer either!

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#292

Post by eqvinox »

earcar wrote: post #171
eqvinox wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from Berlin That's your problem right there. If you live in Berlin, take the 2 hours and go to Hamburg or Leipzig before doing anything that needs a working bureaucracy.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe there was an issue with the "place of effective management" or perhaps the company address not being in your federal state.

You probably would've needed to get an address there somehow, yes. There's services that do that for you, the non-shady ones being provided by lawyers and notaries.

[ed.: a tiny office in Leipzig is pretty cheap too, but you'd need to ensure mail doesn't pile up there unchecked.]

Unfortunately I'm not joking about this entire thing. Berlin's underfunded, overstressed bureaucracy is to be avoided like the plague.

[ed.2: to be clear, it'll still not be great. Just less bad.]

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#293

Post by keiferski »

_fat_santa wrote: post #276
WarmWash wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are jealous of the US system where you can create an LLC in one hour for $200, and by the next day be doing business with all your personal assets isolated.

The US system is built to support entrepreneurship while the EU system broadly is to support the consumer and employee. The US will never be able to match the EU's consumer and employee protections and the EU will never be able to match the US's ease of doing business, because to have one you have to fundamentally give in on the other. Depending on who you ask, one system is wildly better than the other, but at the e…

I think this is a false dichotomy. Consumer return policies, customer service, etc. tend to be much better in the US than in the EU.

I would characterize it rather that the US is pro-business and pro-consumer, but somewhat anti-average worker.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#294

Post by ecshafer »

Lariscus wrote: post #194
rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

The author can surely understand it. And this system is what is keeping Germany and many European countries from propelling their economies forward by reducing market dynamism. Its not a coincidence that China, US and many other countries, which have more dynamic markets and large GDP growth let you set up a company in a day.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#295

Post by wi5eif6E »

earcar wrote: post #241
Lariscus wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

I have founded a UG and upgraded to a GmbH before. It had got us "more credibility" with our clients, and 12,500EUR less in each other's bank accounts. Thanks for your insults.

I get that this gives you less liquidity personally, but (a) you're only required to pay in half, i.e., 6,250 EUR each, and (b) this money isn't gone, and you don't lose the ability to recover it should you decide to liquidate the company later. As others have pointed out, you can use that money to pay costs associated with the founding (e.g., the notary) and also expenses required to maintain the company (IHK dues, bookkeeping, etc.).

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#296

Post by gchamonlive »

earcar wrote: post #241
Lariscus wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

I have founded a UG and upgraded to a GmbH before. It had got us "more credibility" with our clients, and 12,500EUR less in each other's bank accounts. Thanks for your insults.

HN commenters are acid, but from one author to another don't let them get to you because they'll shun you for losing your temper even if it's totally justified.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#297

Post by mplappert »

There’s a lot of confusion here:

- There is no double taxation if you just pay yourself a salary (since it’s a normal business expense). If you want to take money out of the company flexibly, a GmbH is the wrong structure.

- I’ve never heard of anybody doing an UG/GmbH + KG to get started. This is highly unusual. Most people either do just a simple UG or maybe they set up a holding structure with two separate GmbH / UG entities.

- Related to the above: if you go with a simple, standard structure you will incur minimal legal fees. You don’t need a lawyer, you just directly task a notary and tell them you want a standard setup.

- If you don’t want the complexity of a limited liability company, the standard way to reduce liability risk is to get liability insurance. Many, many people do this instead of having a GmbH.

The valid criticism is the a) lack of digital processes and b) sequential processing of steps that could happen in parallel. For example, I sped up my own GmbH process by driving to the register court and paying in cash on-site. For whatever reason that’s much faster and saves about a week.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#298

Post by fhars »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #55
lnsru wrote: post #19

I am an electrician. Got my certification done with Handwerkskammer, went to the city hall, registered my company and filled online form rejecting the option with VAT number since all my clients are in greater Munich area. Same path could be chosen with VAT number. Ranting about choosing most complex business form and having no money for a consultant is not adequate in my eyes. Btw I am always liable as electrician (…

> Ranting about choosing most complex business form and having no money for a consultant is not adequate in my eyes. You shouldn't need a consultant to open a company. Should be a form and that's it. Maybe an accountant to certify your books, but that's it.

They are not trying to just open a company, they are trying to create one the more complex nested company setups allowed by German law.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#299

Post by logifail »

rob74 wrote: post #165

> Which leaves the only real question. Why 25,000 at all? It is my company and my risk. If I want to start with nothing, that is my call, not a toll the state collects before it will let me try. And the cheap door has a price of its own: to some clients, “UG” reads as “not serious,” and they would rather deal with a GmbH. The structure built to let me in quietly marks me for using it. The 25,000 is there to make sure…

> The 25,000 is there to make sure you can cover some liability

I would suggest that this idea of a GmbH does not actually work the way you think it does. Maybe it once did, but not any more. For instance:

  Wirecard Technologies GmbH
  Wirecard Sales International Holding GmbH
  Wirecard Acquiring & Issuing GmbH
  Wirecard Acceptance Technologies GmbH
Much of the regulatory structures in Europe work this way, they assume that both good and bad guys will play by the same rules.

Spoiler: the bad guys don't care about the rules!

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#300

Post by bildung »

WarmWash wrote: post #224
Lariscus wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authors inability to understand this really makes wonder how much of the rest of their story is essentially self-inflicted.

They are jealous of the US system where you can create an LLC in one hour for $200, and by the next day be doing business with all your personal assets isolated.

There are not quite as easy, but still ways easier types to choose from in Germany, OP just decided to go for one of the very complex ones.
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