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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#361

Post by ragnese »

Shared404 wrote: post #61
ragnese wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). PulseAudio did have some growing pains, though. I don't remember them exactly, but I remember having to tinker way too much to get apps to work together/correctly between ALSA and PulseAudio, etc. I still have a finicky laptop that REFUSES to do audio over HDMI unless I boot the machine with the HDMI cable plugged in already. No real…

> I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). I mostly agree, although I prefer OpenRC personally. I was bit by [* ] Stopping service 1:30 remaining too many times to really like SystemD, although I tolerate it on my daily driver these days.

What does OpenRC do for stopping services before shutdown? Does it just have a shorter wait time by default?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#362

Post by gpm »

kuschku wrote: post #290
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

It does support Linux, just fine, on x11... It's also the only option for a significant portion of machine learning software.

Meanwhile we (or at least I) aren't asking any unpaid volunteers to fix anything. We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case when it doesn't, nothing more.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#363

Post by spijdar »

kuschku wrote: post #209
spijdar wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional pentester here - Wayland alone doesn't really do much for you, security wise. It is still very possible for an application simply running under a wayland compositor to do lots of nasty things. The Wayland protocol provides the building blocks for someone to create an Android-like sandboxed environment, but doing so would break every application. Snaps and Flatpak come closer, but still generally miss the…

> This is ... not true, either broadly or generally I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. Every application has the ability to be a keylogger by default. And with that captured password, it then can either inject input events into your terminal, or run sudo itself. > The Way…

Ah, that's fair.

Still, assuming a lack of other sandboxing, running a keylogger is pretty trivial. It's not by default, as you put it, but an un-sandboxed application has enough access to your filesystem to perform tomfoolery and get your credentials. At that point, there's no need to start a terminal, you just load some shellcode in whatever process you control, and say goodbye to your data.

As for sandboxing, well, you're right, although one could sandbox X11 if they wanted to. "X-on-X" is actually a thing, rarely used outside developing X, but I could see it being used for seamless sandboxing with some work. Work that, inevitably, no-one will actually do, so there's that ;)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#364

Post by zamadatix »

kuschku wrote: post #290
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

Or just use KDE Wayland, they support it fine.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#365

Post by away_throw »

silisili wrote: post #150
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.

I believe that this is being fixed soon if you compile Electron with "Ozone" support. Otherwise, I use the current workaround of using OBS with a "virtual webcam" which allows me to stream OBS to a webcam and just use my webcam as the screenshare. Actually ends up working better than any screenshare utility that I've used.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#367

Post by leephillips »

I use dwm and X11. I don’t use a “desktop” and never will. I only use one monitor, and don’t care about screen sharing. X11 works fine for me in almost all respects—the exception is some applications drawing some of their text too small on my high-resolution screen. Is there any reason for me to know about Wayland?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#368

Post by foldr »

phkahler wrote: post #344
foldr wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, I understand how amazing it is that this software is truly free and created by volunteers, no, I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made. To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you.

>> To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you. People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. Yes, peop…

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything.

They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to the project.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#369

Post by erk__ »

kuschku wrote: post #290
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

Also worth noticing, there are other operating systems that does not use the Linux kernel. FreeBSD does have an official Nvidia driver (although a pretty limited in term of framework suppot) and Nouveau is not ported anymore. The AMD drivers are a port of the Linux drivers and are usually some versions behind because it is work to port them. So it means that I cannot try out sway on my laptop, and as I am not planning to buy a new laptop in the next few years, it is not something I can try soon. Sure I can just run Linux and I do on another drive, but I just end up with X so I can share configurations.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#370

Post by strofcon »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

>> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you.

>That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it.

Doesn't seem that was the point of that statement. Rather, it's asserting that it's invalid to claim that the very people who built the thing in the first place are a "vague authority".

How true the accusation it, I dunno, but that's my read of the sentence - not that the volunteer devs are somehow entitled to endearment by virtue of their volunteering. :-)

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