Earlier quoted context omitted.
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You are getting downvoted because your contributions to hacker news are low quality. Consider contributing something else other than conspiracy theories. The CIA and NSA are two organizations under the Dept of Homeland Security. They are only opposed to one another in the sense that they are both competing for funding. The divisions among government that you imagine just aren't real. The "deep state" is mostly a bunc…
United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
361–370 of 501 posts
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snowden "...carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest. There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over" What was released (and how), and what we learned are two separate issues. As a U.S. citizen, it's preferable that the subjective legitimacy of what best serves public interest is not in the hands of ON…
If you're concerned about the best interest of the public and US citizens then maybe you should spend less time worrying about Snowden and more time worrying about the NSA's inadequate monitoring, life cycle, and DLP practices. Billions of dollars were lost and countless orgs were negatively affected by the release of Eternal Blue alone.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have you been paying attention? At the time that Snowden made his revelations, no approval was necessary for an NSA analyst to activate a webcam, for example. They literally just had to select from a menu of totally broad reasons on an internal web form documenting the access. They had a congressionally granted exemption from requiring case-by-case FISA approval. This is now all open and acknowledged, and found to be…
Last I checked, the courts made the final decision on what's legal and what's not. I haven't seen the 9-0 Supreme Court decision that says that warrantless wiretapping is illegal. Maybe you can point it out to me? The point isn't that I disagree with you on what should be legal or illegal, I very much agree with you. The point is, unless something enters a court of law for ajudication, it's very much in the land of t…
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa/nsas-pho...
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're concerned about the best interest of the public and US citizens then maybe you should spend less time worrying about Snowden and more time worrying about the NSA's inadequate monitoring, life cycle, and DLP practices. Billions of dollars were lost and countless orgs were negatively affected by the release of Eternal Blue alone.
Clearly the NSA is out of control - but these aren't conflating issues. For the record, I don't particularly spend time worrying about either Snowden or the NSA.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snowden "...carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest. There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over" What was released (and how), and what we learned are two separate issues. As a U.S. citizen, it's preferable that the subjective legitimacy of what best serves public interest is not in the hands of ON…
Yes, let's best put it into the hand of the agency/government that tried to hide the information from the public in the first place... "Please defendent, have look at the evidence we gathered about your murder case. It's best if you decide which of the evidence we should use in court against you." lmao (on a sad note, this is how day to day business at goverments looks like and precisely WHY we need whistleblowers)
That said, I believe Snowden acted correctly. The federal government in its current form has lost its legitimacy as an arbiter of sensitive information, and citizens of the USA have every reason to believe that federal intelligence agencies are abusing the priveledges vested in them by the people.
Laws can be formulated in good faith by a legitimate government to protect and conceal information, but in this particular case they needed to seriously overhauled, and Snowden's act of civil disobedience was justified.
I think he should be prosecuted, and the laws changed. Personally I'm rooting for Snowden, but effective civil disobedience requires a willingness to go down with the ship that Snowden clearly lacked.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#366Nobody in this discussion seems to have mentioned the word "advance". Snowden has already been paid for this book, and the advance will have been negotiated with the expectation that it will be difficult to pay any additional royalties. Has Snowden's contract with the publisher been exhibited yet? It'll be interesting to see if there's anything funny in there.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snowdens most fundamental job requirement was to uphold the US constitution. He tried to stop gross constitutional violations from within using the official processes and was ignored. He is the greatest American hero of our era for sacrificing his own freedom to protect the nation. The NSA employees who are 'just following orders' are little better than Nazi footsolders in 1940s Germany. Their continued violation of…
That can be said in regards to leaks pertaining to constitutional violations against US citizens. But how about the unrelated cyber espionage and surveillance leaks which fell into the hands of China, Russia, etc.? There are only a handful of truly knowledgeable parties in the U.S. which can measure how extensive the damage to those affairs was. It's very easy to say there should be no surveillance whatsoever but tha…
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#368Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whistleblowers do have protections. I was just looking this up the other day- there are proper ways to report this even for matters that deal with classified information. He didn't do that. https://www.dodig.mil/Components/Administrative-Investigatio...
If you want to know why Snowden did it, and the way he did it, you have to know the stories of two other men. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/22/how-pentagon... "The sad reality of today’s policies is that going to the inspector general with evidence of truly serious wrongdoing is often a mistake. Going to the press involves serious risks, but at least you’ve got a chance."
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snowdens most fundamental job requirement was to uphold the US constitution. He tried to stop gross constitutional violations from within using the official processes and was ignored. He is the greatest American hero of our era for sacrificing his own freedom to protect the nation. The NSA employees who are 'just following orders' are little better than Nazi footsolders in 1940s Germany. Their continued violation of…
> Snowdens most fundamental job requirement was to uphold the US constitution This feels like one of those things that Americans say, that may not be true. Is this actually true? Do NSA employees state such an oath? Is defense of the constitution more important than defense of the nation if the two are in conflict? Happy to be persuaded that this is true, but feels pretty glib to a non-American.
General guidelines to organize and plan governments around have existed since time immemorial. What makes modern constitutions special is that it specifies the idea of popular sovereignty, that it is the entirety of the population of a nation that provides the legitimacy for the state.
The idea originated amidst the Enlightenment period of the 17-1800s. Monarchy was where, generally speaking, legitimacy derived ultimately from the divinity of the ruler, and was passed down through their descendants. Popular sovereignty and the republican form of government that enshrined it had to be evolved over hundreds of years, the Dutch constitution being a pillar of the system. The US Constitution was a virtual carbon copy of the Dutch one.
One of the questions grappled with in the transition from monarchy to republic was, what happens when the government fails to exercise authority due to exigent circumstances? This question led to the modern concept of the "state of emergency" in which the government reverts to a more primitive form. It was also noted that protecting the republic required extra-legal powers, because republican forms of government are relatively easy to subvert.
When states of emergency arise, the constitution is set aside by the executive branch of government until order is restored. No elections are held, power rests in the hands of the military.
This is but one of the ways in which constitutions cannot be seen as the ultimate arbiters of the organization of society. If society can't protect itself, then somebody must protect society.
Now we can deal with the matter of intelligence services. Intelligence services were once crucial to the functioning of pre-republican states. They were called the secret police, the apparatus of government that takes care of the tasks that need to be done by the state but are too unsavory for the public to know about.
It is inevitable that the need for these tasks arise. This comment is already too long for me to give and flesh out examples. The biggest issue that needs dealing with is revolution, which is a violent event that we usually think of as originating from grassroots populism, but is also just as easily planned and carried out by small groups that can't be seen as the instrumentation of popular sovereignty. Discovering and dealing with these national threats is part of the purview of intelligence services. The alternative to secret police is endless revolutions of the kind seen by Latin America during the late 20th century.
Another function that must be dealt with is the exploration and research of matters too unsavory for the public to deal with, as these things can carry serious consequences for public safety. I have learned recently that the CIA has carried on with experiments carried out by the Nazis. This is but one example.
The people in national intelligence organizations see themselves as guardians of the people, and empowered with ultimate authority to do that. Many countries, most notably Eastern European ones, oscillate between secret-police control and a more feudal kind of organization. One system you might study is Russia's current system of tributary taxation.
Keeping state secrets secret is the true foundation of any national security functionary, as extremely serious consequences could theoretically result. And when you get to the scale of government, theoretically possible means you have to do a study to determine how many times and where it's actually happened, and to come up with plans for dealing with it when the theory finds manifestation
The main resource that has taught me this traditional point of view believes that Snowden is a bloody traitor and should be executed. This is opinion he offered freely on Quora, with no respect given to the popular view of Snowden as a hero. As far as he's concerned, Snowden needs to serve as an example, he absolutely has to die, even if he's revealed some atrocities and secret information.
This person has also revealed vast amounts of information that has been declassified, but still shows mind-blowing inadequacy of anything other than highly trained government functionaries to deal with the heavy weight of exercising legitimate force. The idea I think he's conveying is that while Snowden's revelations might be shocking and awful, his similar revelations cut to the meat of why such things are needed.
As far as this point of view is concerned, atrocities and subversion of popular sovereignty is business as usual in the government sphere, revealing them does society no good. They've always happened, they're always happening, let the people trained to deal with them do their jobs, just like any sphere of human org, the org learns how to do their jobs better over time.
We have dealt with the traditional view of how 'secret' organizations derive their legitimacy, now I will offer my speculation as to how to think about how to move forward.
I believe Edward Snowden represents a change in the ability of society to countenance the full weight of what humans are capable of. Consciousness is being raised in the human race across the board, and the old problems that gave rise to intelligence apparatus in the past are no longer relevant.
As a result, changes need to be made in how society is planned. The old ways of organizing society are still valid, they still work, and they will continue to work. The US government will happily kangaroo court Snowden as cruelly as they can if they ever get their hands on him. And high level government functionaries will say and believe that he deserves it.
Because what Snowden ultimately embodies, to this point of view, is the same kind of thought that leads to endless, pointless revolution, the idea that humanity cannot overcome its basic nature, and so will always require highly-trained operatives and apparatus to deal with it in secret like it needs to be dealt with.
This has to fundamentally be outside of the existing legal system and constitution, which concerns itself with limiting the powers of government so as to facilitate commerce and public expression, but is woefully inadequate to deal with the protection of that society. Secrecy is an essential tool, to be wielded cautiously and judiciously. The government is the only entity that reserves the right to compel labor other than overtly criminal organizations like organized crime.
We may demand changes in how secret government operations are conducted, but it may never come to pass that secrecy is totally eliminated from government. I have a greater appreciation for this mindset now than I used to, though I still hope that we can find a way to stop ridiculousness like the MKULTRA project.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#370Earlier quoted context omitted.
What crimes has Donald committed?
Campaign finance violations (his personal lawyer is currently sitting in jail for an illegal campaign contribution he carried out at the direction of Donald trump). Obstruction of justice is pretty well documented in the mueller report. Those are just the obvious ones