Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 427 posts

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#361

Post by anigbrowl »

webXL wrote: post #235
jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

Are you one of those people that thinks serving time is like a stay in a hotel with free food and cable TV?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#362

Post by paulryanrogers »

csmark wrote: post #60

The USA has ~5% of the world's population but 22% of the world's prisoners. Financial profiting from prisoners: Prison Labor - paid $0.93-0.16/hr California Prisons didn't want to release prisoners because they would loose cheap labor..Courts said they had to: https://thinkprogress.org/california-tells-court-it-cant-rel... 30% of California forest firefighters are prisoners .. The state argued against parole credit f…

I'd like to hope the US is just better at catching criminals than the rest of the world. Sadly these conflicts of interest make that the less likely explanation.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#363

Post by opo »

Jun8 wrote: post #315
jcranmer wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the clause: > except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, SCOTUS has ruled that prison labor does not violate the 13th amendment.

True, here's a good writeup on the subject: https://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/prison-labor-and-... . Mind boggling! Also, "The Thirteenth Amendment has also been interpreted to permit the government to require certain forms of public service, presumably extending to military service and jury duty." ( https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/a-common-interpretation-... )

>...Also, "The Thirteenth Amendment has also been interpreted to permit the government to require certain forms of public service, presumably extending to military service and jury duty.”

That’s a handy excuse to use to justify involuntary servitude. I guess they feel the part about "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,“ wasn’t meant to be taken seriously.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#364

Post by smartbit »

wallflower wrote: post #115
wonderous wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Legally speaking seems like in the US that prisoners are slaves. SOURCE: https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/13thamendment.htm...

13th is a Netflix documentary about this. Warning: It may be quite difficult to watch. https://www.netflix.com/title/80091741

Thank you. Great tip.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#365

Post by anigbrowl »

sgc wrote: post #233
soup10 wrote: post #146

giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly disrespect god(aka the power structure of the society you live in), you must suffer as an example to others. Its not an ideal system, but there's a certain sensibility to it that stabilizes society. If people saw those that go to jail, come out better persons. T…

That does not resemble any religious doctrine I know of. The predominant one in the US, Christianity, views punishment on earth as corrective in nature, ie for rehabilitation, and also views prisons as serving the purpose of separating bad actors from society so they cannot damage others. There is no place for retribution, vengeance, etc. American culture seems to be fixated with vendetta, but it is not religious in…

You need to learn more. It is warmed-over Calvinism and this strain is widespread in the US thanks to the influence of theologians like the late RJ Rushdoony. Look into the work of Chip Berlet on Christian Dominionism and its influence on politics, as well as Colin Woodard's excellent history book American Nations.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#366

Post by jholman »

danielam wrote: post #219
throwawayjava wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly involuntary servitude, and I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between that and slavery. Also, the word "except" is our key hint here.

It is involuntary (all punishment is!), but it's not servitude in the same sense that slavery is. If you want to call that "slavery" nonetheless, that's up to you, but you'd be equivocating. There is a difference between slavery as an institution of unjust forced submission and "slavery" as just punishment for crimes committed.

Slavery doesn't mean "unjust forced submission", it means "forced submission". There was slavery before 16th C Atlantic triangular slave trading, there's legal and illegal slavery, and maybe there's ethical slavery too (or maybe not).

Redefining the word so that prison slavery doesn't qualify seems obtuse, counterproductive, and doesn't even have the defense of being historical.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#367

Post by nerfhammer »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #144
cubano wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being boorish about the subject... I was recently released from Las Vegas County Jail (CCDC) where all sentenced inmates, myself included, are forced , by state law, to "work" in some manner in the jail. In this case, work consisted of 11-hour shifts, 6 days a week, of ultra back-breaking kitchen work. We were not even allowed to have water cups anywhere outside the break room. They actually yelled fas…

I'm guessing you mean Aramark ( http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/prison-strike-protest-ar... ) not Aero-Mark Corporation, an aerospace company. Though perhaps I'm cynical enough to believe that the latter's mission statement "The Aero-mark team bases its work ethic on unity, quality, and accountability. We are one company, one team, succeeding together." could be espoused by a company that abuses prison labor. The…

Oh god, like I needed another reason to loathe Aramark. So much worse than I even realized.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#368

Post by anigbrowl »

lowpro wrote: post #190
soup10 wrote: post #146

giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly disrespect god(aka the power structure of the society you live in), you must suffer as an example to others. Its not an ideal system, but there's a certain sensibility to it that stabilizes society. If people saw those that go to jail, come out better persons. T…

What a silly argument. (Disclaimer: atheist) Your argument doesn't understand what god(s) mean. In what world does anyone use society as an understanding or proxy of god? This argument makes a fallacious assumption as its primary argument then goes on to make other points based off of that incorrect assumption by definition. And besides that, I think you grossly underestimate the stubbornness of many who go to jail i…

Your perspective is uninformed, to say the very least. If you have never been in any religious tradition then you are wholly unqualified to pronounce on its psychological dynamics or its doctrinal interpretation. Multiple religious denominations are based on the notion of predestination, in which one's position on earth is precisely a proxy for the state of one's soul and eternal prospects.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#369

Post by anigbrowl »

unit91 wrote: post #279
soup10 wrote: post #146

giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly disrespect god(aka the power structure of the society you live in), you must suffer as an example to others. Its not an ideal system, but there's a certain sensibility to it that stabilizes society. If people saw those that go to jail, come out better persons. T…

I'm struggling to find the religious doctrine you're describing. Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Peter: "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called…

Dominionism.
Post reply on HN