Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#311

Post by rdtsc » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:10 PM UTC

jaggi1 wrote: post #305

csmark wrote: post #60

The USA has ~5% of the world's population but 22% of the world's prisoners. Financial profiting from prisoners: Prison Labor - paid $0.93-0.16/hr California Prisons didn't want to release prisoners because they would loose cheap labor..Courts said they had to: https://thinkprogress.org/california-tells-court-it-cant-rel... 30% of California forest firefighters are prisoners .. The state argued against parole credit f…

It surprises me that US government has not yet started harvesting organs of the prisoners. Why does someone who has been sentenced for 20 years in prison need his extra kidney for ? > 30% of California forest firefighters are prisoners .. The state argued against parole credit for these prisoners as it would draw down the labor force and lead to depletion of the firefighter force. I guess if some of them die fighting…

I can totally see them doing it. It would be the same as the GP described. It wouldn't be compulsory but those that don't agree get their good time reduced, get written up, marked for non-cooperation and so on. In other words there enough mechanisms for this to happen.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#312

Post by jaggi1 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

kapauldo wrote: post #94

ClassyJacket wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery Zero. It's literally slavery. The thought of it is barbaric and horrible.

Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.

Check the list of people pardoned by George W Bush. Most of them should not have been in jail in first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Geo...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#313

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

tcj_phx wrote: post #303

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Placing vengeance over societal harmony as the end goal of our legal system only has the effect of begetting more vengeance. Also, your complete dismissal of mental health as a component of crime is suspect and your post is filled with familiar rhetoric. Do you also believe that spanking or otherwise physically abusing a child is preferred for discipline as opposed to other methods? We live in the 21st century and we…

> Because many untreated mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia) are degenerative, early treatment is especially helpful. Mental illnesses are commonly considered "degenerative" because the professionals don't address the various causes. My observation is that the mental health industry favors palliative treatments instead of curative therapies. They do this because they think the causes are unknown, and that pallia…

To be clear, I do bemoan the current state of mental health facilities. If you can afford it and feel like you are approaching a breakdown, NEVER check yourself into a hospital (unless you are positive you are going to hurt someone else or yourself). Sane people have a difficult time getting out of such environments

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#314

Post by pixl97 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

cubano wrote: post #225

pixl97 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on what 'added' means. The sentence you receive from a judge is probably not anywhere close to what you will actually sit in jail for. Probation, parole, double time, triple time, good behavior, trustee status, all affect the outcome. For example, you are sentenced to 3 years of jail for a non-violent drug offense. How long do you serve in jail? Very commonly 366 days, though it may be as much as a year…

> For example, you are sentenced to 3 years of jail for a non-violent drug offense. How long do you serve in jail? You don't get 3 years in jail, you get 3 years in prison. The only jail time you do waiting to be sentenced to prison is the time you wait to go to court. You get no gain time for time spent in jail for your prison sentence, so its often called dead time or day-for-day or something. >An ironic applicatio…

>You get no gain time for time spent in jail for your prison sentence,

You have no idea what "time served" means at sentencing. You can get released on the day you are sentenced if you have already served more time.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#315

Post by Jun8 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #304

tomjen3 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is arguably a violation of the 13th admentment: >Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Unless the work was part of the sentence (which I think is totally fair, as a term of restitution) I don't see how what they did was legal. You might want to…

Note the clause: > except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, SCOTUS has ruled that prison labor does not violate the 13th amendment.

True, here's a good writeup on the subject: https://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/prison-labor-and-.... Mind boggling!

Also, "The Thirteenth Amendment has also been interpreted to permit the government to require certain forms of public service, presumably extending to military service and jury duty." (https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/a-common-interpretation-...)

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#316

Post by FullMtlAlcoholc » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

tombrossman wrote: post #116

FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the US court system not refund travel cost? I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing out loud for that one. No, they do not refund any cost you incur for going to court. Luckily, I wasn't accused of any drug crimes or they may have seized my car and kept it under then-existing asset forfeiture (legal theft) laws

For future reference, if you or others reading this catch a bullshit charge like you describe, it is very likely that you can have a lawyer handle everything for you and it may be cheaper than the extra travel costs and missed work days. Even if you are supposedly 'required' to appear. I'm not a lawyer so my specific advice is to call a few and explain the situation, then hire one to handle everything for you. Even i…

I learned this lesson the hard way. I have weird facial tics. People often remark that I must be a very happy go lucky guy because I often smile involuntarily (or maybe that's the default position of my lips). During a pleading where I was highly anxious, a judge thought I wasn't taking the matter at hand seriously because I was smiling and decided to throw the book at me for that. This phenomenon is also what caused "Foxy Knoxy" to be immediately labeled guilty. One would think that judges would judge people by more objective measures, but sometimes they can be the worst judge of character.

Protip: If you have to appear in front of a judge, try your best to be the first party the judge sees in the morning or right after lunch. Your chances of a favorable judgment lessen as time wears on and judge's get cranky. I use this same philosophy for job interviews: try to appear before the interviewer at the least stressful time, and they are more likely to view you favorably.

ALWAYS lawyer up with the best you can afford. Justice may be blind, but the more money you have and, accordingly, the higher a quality of lawyer you can afford, the more "justice" you will receive.

That's why it's so difficult for rich/powerful people to ever land inside a jail cell.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#317

Post by jcranmer » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #167

kapauldo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.

So what? Ever had a traffic ticket? Stolen something when you were young? Yes? Technically, you are a criminal then. You just didn't get caught or were a minor criminal, according to law. Besides. Anyone in prison/jail is still human and I truly believe this gives you some rights, including the right not to be used as slave labor. After all, we've already taken away their freedom.

Traffic tickets are not crimes, they're not even misdemeanors. For example, the Virginia code says:

> "Traffic infraction" means a violation of law punishable as provided in § 46.2-113, which is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor.

§ 46.2-113:

> [ ... ] Unless otherwise stated, these violations shall constitute traffic infractions punishable by a fine of not more than that provided for a Class 4 misdemeanor under § 18.2-11.

Ran a red light? Not a criminal. DUI? Criminal.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#318

Post by pixl97 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

77pt77 wrote: post #294

cubano wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, you are sentenced to 3 years of jail for a non-violent drug offense. How long do you serve in jail? You don't get 3 years in jail, you get 3 years in prison. The only jail time you do waiting to be sentenced to prison is the time you wait to go to court. You get no gain time for time spent in jail for your prison sentence, so its often called dead time or day-for-day or something. >An ironic applicatio…

> You get no gain time for time spent in jail for your prison sentence, so its often called dead time or day-for-day or something. Excuse me?! So if I wait for 1 year in jail waiting to go to court and later I'm sentenced to 1 year in prison, I get to serve another year?!

No, that poster doesn't know what they are talking about. That said, sentencing is very discretionary so a judge will commonly balance out your total sentence with how much time you've already spent in jail.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#319

Post by rdtsc » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:20 PM UTC

jaggi1 wrote: post #306

theBobBob wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That really is simply disgusting. Keeping people imprisoned mainly so that they can be used as a source of cheap (borderline free) labour is pure exploitation. It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. I know that at least in theory people are in prison because they have done something wrong so that them working to in part pay for the cost of their incarceration seems justified but if they should be relea…

> It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. If I ever go through that system there is no way in hell I am coming out of the prison "reformed". Today when I look at a young kid I feel compassion and I will help the kid in need. After coming out of an US Prison I am likely to see everyone else as "these people were responsible for putting me through hell". That lack of compassion is way more worse. I am not…

Before there was strong for-profit bit in the mix (but it was always there) but the main idea was that rehabilitation is too complicated and doesn't work. Something to the effect of "Oh look we tried, half-hardheartedly, it failed, there is no point wasting time, these people never learn so just lock them up away from the society for as long as possible". That was always going hand in hand with tough-on-crime politics and a general sadistic undercurrent in the American culture that celebrates punishment for punishment's sake.

But once the for profit element was added into the mix there is an actual disincentive to rehabilitate people as it would mean a direct reduction in profits. So before it was bad but this is like adding some gasoline into the fire.

There was for example, the case of a judge in PA who had a deal with the local prison/juvenile center of sorts where he was sending teenagers in for minor infractions and was getting kickbacks.

Prison industrial complex also lobbies the government to keep the War on Drugs going because a reform there also would directly cut profits for them.

There even a whole ecosystem of predators exploiting every single angle possible to milk the prisoners and their families' money and labor. Down to telecom companies with ridiculously expensive charges when prisoners talk to their loved ones, to companies selling food (the commissary) and so on.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#320

Post by pixl97 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #308

throwaway040435 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get 3 years in jail, you get 3 years in prison. The only jail time you do waiting to be sentenced to prison is the time you wait to go to court. Do you think it's appropriate to call out someone for using "jail" instead of "prison", when the meaning is clear, and you made the same mistake just 5 minutes prior? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14497654 and in your original post: https://news.ycombinator.…

It wasn't clear for all of us. It would be nice of the OP to change "jail" to "prison" if that's what they meant.

The definition between a jail and a prison is very much depends on what state you are in.

For example in Texas, you've sat in jail for 6 month and receive a 1 year sentence, you will not be sent to prison, you will remain in the jail for the next 6 months. You can remain in 'jail' for years sometimes before being sent to a prison facility, even after sentencing.