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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

51–60 of 427 posts

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#51
Gonna throw some weird idea about prison, what about:

- Smaller but individual cells. (have to think about how to keep them very clean)

- No outside yard for crowd.

- No plural bathroom.

Everything you do is for the benefit of society 90% and the rest for you.

- Clean something outside, plant trees I don't know, so you get walk, sun and forest time.

- You can read books, or some journals.

- You can talk to old wise persons.

- You don't have TV, video games.

- You can work (producing parts, fixing things) again for the benefit of society.

- You can do exercice: biking, rowing. Qi gong or Yoga too. (bonus, plug bikes to generate electricity)

- You get simple healthy food: raw veggies, some meat, some fruits. No sauce, no dessert.

Basically a cheap mindful retreat with optional work. Lowering costs as much as possible and prisonner suffering at the same time. You can improve your mind and your body while paying your mistake by being cut from the group. Nothing more.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#54
post #41
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a very effective option because non-violent offenders are a small fraction of those incarcerated. You could send them all home and still be more or less where you started.

Now I'm not american, but "non-violent offenders are a small fraction of those incarcerated" didn't sound right to me. According to "Table 1.1. Estimated number of felony convictions in state courts, 2006" [0] it seems that only 18% of convictions are because of violent crimes, leading to 82% being non-violent, that doesn't feel like "a small fraction" to me. It's not the latest number, but feels you're trying to giv…

That's of the convicted, not of those in prison at any one time.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#55

Gonna throw some weird idea about prison, what about: - Smaller but individual cells. (have to think about how to keep them very clean) - No outside yard for crowd. - No plural bathroom. Everything you do is for the benefit of society 90% and the rest for you. - Clean something outside, plant trees I don't know, so you get walk, sun and forest time. - You can read books, or some journals. - You can talk to old wise p…

i like the idea but there is not much you can do to coerce folks into doing the activities you suggest. Not everyone in prison is of a good nature.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#56
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oops, you're not supposed to say "market" here. Even if you qualify it with terms like "regulation", people assume you're an extremist libertarian out to ruin the country.

You are indeed not supposed to say 'penal system' and 'market' in the same sentence. That's kind of amoral and ends up costing everyone - that is what all for-profit prisons successfully show.

> That's kind of amoral

I don't think anyone claimed it to be moral or immoral?

> That is what all for-profit prisons successfully show

Seems like this argument could be made for the socialization of virtually any institution. In particular, the OP's solution is different from existing for-profit penal institutions, so there is no logical reason to downvote the OP on the basis of existing institutions.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#57
post #30
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (...) and be rehabilitated. -Never having experienced the US penal system first hand, I cannot be too bombastic - but from the outside, it sure looks as if rehabilitation has taken a back seat to punishment. If one were of a sufficiently cynical disposition, it would be tempting to assume that all involved parties (except the inmates) has more to gain from keeping people locked up than rehabilitating them.

Rehabilitation must exist but it must also take the back seat to punishment. In Europe there is this strange concept that developed that crime is a sort of disease and that prisons are kind of hospital. So there is some expectation that a criminal will be "cured" when leaving jail. And many judges got to the thinking that crime is caused by poverty and since jail will not cure poverty we should not send criminals to…

Placing vengeance over societal harmony as the end goal of our legal system only has the effect of begetting more vengeance.

Also, your complete dismissal of mental health as a component of crime is suspect and your post is filled with familiar rhetoric. Do you also believe that spanking or otherwise physically abusing a child is preferred for discipline as opposed to other methods? We live in the 21st century and we should take advantage the knowledge accrued, especially from the psycho/neurological fields. Here are some facts to rebut your argument:

Mentally ill people are disproportionately victimized by violent crime. The largest crime-reducing benefit of helping persons with mental illness would be in reducing crimes against the mentally ill.

Some types of severe mental illness increase the risk that a person will perpetrate a violent crime. Risk varies based on many other factors, such as substance abuse, or unemployment. Many of the risks are from secondary effects of the mental illness; for example, cognitive difficulties make employment difficult or impossible.

Many mental illnesses have a genetic component, although the genetic effects are far from fully understood. Untreated severe mental illness is particularly significant in homicide—the extreme end of the criminal spectrum. Such illness is even more significant for mass murders of strangers.

Treatment of severe mental illness—best accomplished by a combination of therapy and drugs—can greatly reduce violence by and against the mentally ill.

Many mental ill persons who seek treatment do not receive it. Mental hospital beds per capita in the U.S. are lower than they have been since 1850.

Over the last half-century, mental hospital capacity has dwindled, while prison and jail capacity has vastly expanded. Mentally ill prisoners comprise a large fraction of the jail and prison population.

Compared to imprisonment, treating a mentally ill person in a mental hospital is at least two times as expensive, on month-by-month basis. Nevertheless, expanded availability of treatment in mental hospitals could be cost-effective in the long run. Ninety days in a mental hospital might avoid the need for 10 years in prison. Also, we are not including the costs suffered by victims of crime in this calculation.

Greater availability of mental health treatment would provide major savings to society and to crime victims. Besides that, mentally ill persons who receive appropriate aid can be more constructively productive, and helpful to others.

Because many untreated mental illnesses (such as schizophrenia) are degenerative, early treatment is especially helpful. Preventing a first episode of psychosis (loss of contact with reality) can have major lifetime benefits.

In situations where a severely mentally ill person presents a grave danger to other persons, involuntary commitment may be necessary. Due process should be scrupulously protected—such as the right to neutral decision-maker. Involuntary commitment should not require that the danger to others be “imminent.” Instead of commitment to a mental hospital, “involuntary outpatient commitment” is a less-restrictive alternative for many persons. After hearing the evidence, a judge may order a person to attend therapy and/or to take medication, as a condition of not being committed to a hospital. Such programs have been successful, and should be expanded.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#58
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the US court system not refund travel cost? I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing out loud for that one. No, they do not refund any cost you incur for going to court. Luckily, I wasn't accused of any drug crimes or they may have seized my car and kept it under then-existing asset forfeiture (legal theft) laws

if you were wrongly convicted of a crime, would the costs of your defense be somehow be re-imbursed or compensated?

There have been people wrongly convicted who can't even get out of prison once something like DNA evidence exonerates them.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#59
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where is "over here"?

In UK you can claim cost of travel, meals, loss of earnings and childcare: https://www.gov.uk/going-to-court-victim-witness/expenses-fo... Where I'm originally from(Poland) it was the same - I was summoned to court, after the trial I went to the clerk, said where I drove from and was paid cash for fuel. Had I taken the train it would have been refunded fully.

Is this the same regardless of your role in the trial?

Over here (Finland), if you are witness, you are compensated (meagerly, not always reasonable).

If you are the accused, you pay for your own travel - so the professional criminal class just skips the trial, thereby causing lot of unnecessary hassle to witnesses and injured parties. Then a new trial date is set, and on the nth try the police might pick up the accused, and bring him or her to trial (at no cost), then to be released on a conditional discharge.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#60
The USA has ~5% of the world's population but 22% of the world's prisoners.

Financial profiting from prisoners: Prison Labor - paid $0.93-0.16/hr California Prisons didn't want to release prisoners because they would loose cheap labor..Courts said they had to: https://thinkprogress.org/california-tells-court-it-cant-rel...

30% of California forest firefighters are prisoners .. The state argued against parole credit for these prisoners as it would draw down the labor force and lead to depletion of the firefighter force.

Someone already mentioned the profit of commissaries. Some are actually run by private companies operating inside the prison

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