Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard • Hacker News Board

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#271

Post by usefulcat » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

webXL wrote: post #235

jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

Hypothesis: most people who commit crimes are (for whatever reason) focused far more on short term goals then long term goals when they commit the crime.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#272

Post by JamesBarney » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

webXL wrote: post #235

jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

> I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time?

It's very little deterrence.(look up hyperbolic discounting) The average person is pretty bad at weighing consequences 10 years from now. And criminals I imagine are far worse than average.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#273

Post by exclusiv » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #204

usmeteora wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back to the topic, prisons are just another haven for contract robbing. The prison contracts everything from security to mopping. Everything is 3x more expensive. Prison costs are a sink to our society. Except taxpayers foot the bill. Theres an economic incentive to keeping crime low and right now were all being robbed blind, in this area as well (because yes there are too many to count) The amount who are released w…

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

How is it silly? If you are socially irresponsible and destructive you should have consequences. Just like financially irresponsible results in a credit hit and difficulty getting loans. You label yourself a risk when you do dumb things.

I actually know someone who didn't get a government job at an animal shelter because of his poor credit. He has an MBA too. I don't think that's fair but maybe financially irresponsible people aren't as good at their job. Same with criminals.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#274

Post by jlebrech » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

Bakary wrote: post #253

fivestar wrote: post #216

Until they murder someone you care about. I sincerely believe there is a reason that people behind bars are behind bars. I don't believe the feel-good narratives about noble prisoners who just had a bad turn in life, especially these days where people with long rap sheets are routinely set free to re-offend at will. I've seen them up close--there's not 1 in 20 that I feel sorry for. Every story is one of a downward s…

Policies towards crime in America are pretty strict and have been so for a long time, yet the problem continues to fester and the homicide rate itself is still much higher than in most Western nations with comparatively less severe punishments for criminals. It's not just about the feel-good narrative but the actual idea of whether rehabilitation is more effective at getting the low crime rate you want than focusing…

why not make communities similar to what we have in space sims, you have System Security, and violent offenders would be put in security 0, petty criminals in security level 1, the poor in security 4, the rich in 10, etc. each can have it's own police, etc.

you can get a day pass to visit a higher security level and wear jump suits and id indicating where you came from.

or make a movie about this where it's a perfect system till someone gets frame for something he didn't do.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#275

Post by WalterSear » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

exclusiv wrote: post #273

jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

How is it silly? If you are socially irresponsible and destructive you should have consequences. Just like financially irresponsible results in a credit hit and difficulty getting loans. You label yourself a risk when you do dumb things. I actually know someone who didn't get a government job at an animal shelter because of his poor credit. He has an MBA too. I don't think that's fair but maybe financially irresponsi…

Consequences, like jail time?

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#276

Post by Unbeliever69 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

usmeteora wrote: post #214

deweyair wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'The prison contracts everything from security to mopping.' In the vast majority of American prisons, the prisoners do the mopping. Security is still done by guards, but nearly every other job in the prison is done by the offenders. It's much cheaper this way - for state prisons average starting wage for non-industrial jobs is $0.25/hr. Industrial jobs don't start much higher, but they tend to have a higher cap aroun…

So where is the $75k cost to house them coming from? Clearly some contract is too expensive and something is not adding up. For that price, we should have Harvard classes taught at prisons, and maybe these inmates could have a shot at using their disparate lifestyle extremes to have new ways to employ/create new businesses that can improve society in areas where they see/experience/witness need for improvement, and p…

I have a friend that is a Phd candidate at the University of Utah. He teaches physics/math/cosmology at the state prison from time to time. He says that inmates are far-and-away the best audiences he has ever taught to! They are a "captive" audience! Couldn't resist :)

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#277

Post by knodi123 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

derekp7 wrote: post #244

webXL wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

But is there really a deterrence factor? Most people don't commit crimes, due to a personal moral code. Those who have morals that don't get in the way of crime, just use the deterrence factor to find ways of not getting caught. Now what would really help, especially with recidivism, is to use the profit motive of prisons in a different way. First-time offenders-- the prison gets paid full price. If an offender retur…

> That would encourage the private prison system to rehabilitate, and provide post-release re-integration assistance.

Or to make tiers of service, where second-timers get a cheaper and more brutal experience which happens to be cheaper for the prison.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#278

Post by webnrrd2k » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

jaggi1 wrote: post #240

thriftwy wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

> How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Sure! but will you rent a place that is $500 expensive while bringing no additional benefit other than it employed someone at higher wages ?

There is very often is an additional benefit. It just isn't directly to you.

Isn't that what minimum wage is all about? And disability, social security, and public education? There are lots of benefits to these programs, but the benefits often go directly to someone else, and indirectly back to whoever paid for them.

Also, I think a lot of problems come from paying the cheapest possible price, rather that paying for value. An over-focus on short-term profits causes a lot of long-term issues.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#279

Post by unit91 » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

soup10 wrote: post #146

giving criminals rights is a politically toxic because of religious doctrine: the point of jail is not to learn, but to suffer. the idea is if you flagrantly disrespect god(aka the power structure of the society you live in), you must suffer as an example to others. Its not an ideal system, but there's a certain sensibility to it that stabilizes society. If people saw those that go to jail, come out better persons. T…

I'm struggling to find the religious doctrine you're describing.

Jesus: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Peter: "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing."

Paul: "Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#280

Post by Brockenstein » Tue, Jun 06, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

webXL wrote: post #235

jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

>Was it society's to begin with?

Sure it does, in the sense that wealth only exists as a construct of society. If Bill Gates is on a deserted island it doesn't matter if he has $1 or $60 billion, because without society his money has no value.

One could make an argument that if society has made you very wealthy you owe a lot to society. Personally I don't disagree.

Of course from there it gets messier because everyone has opinions about how wealth is earned, how beholden the earners are to everyone else, how much of personal success is solely based on an individual's merits as opposed to support from society and other external sources. People want to minimize or maximize the particular points best serve their beliefs in this case. Hard to say who is the rightiest.