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Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

latimes.com

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Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#241

Post by Applejinx »

thriftwy wrote: post #222
narrator wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of the border patrol presence there aren't any illegal aliens around to do construction. He could only get cheap labor from ex-convicts. It made me think that typically ex-cons have formed the lowest rung in the economic ladder that illegal aliens now fulfill.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

in the UK, they are doing their best to optimize for cheap police. Seems a worrying trend with no clear boundaries.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#242

Post by mathiasben »

thriftwy wrote: post #222
narrator wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend who lived in Bisbee, Arizona, which is a small town next to the border that has a big border patrol station in the city. He said that because of the border patrol presence there aren't any illegal aliens around to do construction. He could only get cheap labor from ex-convicts. It made me think that typically ex-cons have formed the lowest rung in the economic ladder that illegal aliens now fulfill.

How about paying what it's worth for labor instead of expecting to get 'cheap' labor? Yesterday people expected cheap construction labor, today they complain there's not enough cheap home nurses around. I wonder if they'll aim for cheap software development labor tomorrow. I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts?

- I wonder why I don't feel entitled to cheap caviar and cheap yachts? -

both of which are available if you're interested.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#243

Post by hajile »

crusso wrote: post #203
eeZah7Ux wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up the word in a dictionary. It's perfectly legitimate and correct use of the term.

Words can mean whatever the speaker and the listener agree upon. I'm not arguing with the dictionary definition. I'm arguing that here in the US, which is a very relevant context for a HN discussion on US/CA prisons, the term slavery has special meaning and we shouldn't water it down by using it to describe every perceived slight.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The 13th amendment specifically calls it slavery and specifically allows that kind of slavery. The abolitionists who pushed through the 13th knew the meaning of slavery when it was more than a distant memory and still decided that it was the correct term.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#244

Post by derekp7 »

webXL wrote: post #235
jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

But is there really a deterrence factor? Most people don't commit crimes, due to a personal moral code. Those who have morals that don't get in the way of crime, just use the deterrence factor to find ways of not getting caught.

Now what would really help, especially with recidivism, is to use the profit motive of prisons in a different way. First-time offenders-- the prison gets paid full price. If an offender returns to prison, the prison should get paid less, or not at all. That would encourage the private prison system to rehabilitate, and provide post-release re-integration assistance.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#245

Post by 1024core »

I think the Prison Industry should be judged by their recidivism rate. The Prison Guards union in Cali is very, very strong (they were behind the '3 strikes' law, ensuring a lifetime of "clients"). Their pay and benefits should be tied to the recidivism rate.

Prisons should not be training grounds for future criminals, but they are today.

Also: prisons should be shuffled periodically, mixing up the population. That'll prevent the formation of criminal gangs inside. Outside, they'll be living in a diverse, mixed environment anyways; might as well get them started on that inside.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#246

Post by kakarot »

webXL wrote: post #235
jondubois wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the idea of having a criminal record is silly - It's a self-fulfilling label. Once you are labeled a criminal, it only makes it harder to get a job and give up crime. Besides, crime has become such an arbitrary thing. A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes but if a member of society physically steals something fro…

I mostly agree that the record makes it harder to get a job and give up crime, but what about the deterrence factor? How many more would commit crimes knowing that it wouldn't have any impact on their ability to get a decent job right after serving some time? > A corporation is allowed to quietly syphon away billions of dollars from society using clever government lobbying and tax avoidance schemes Was it society's t…

You're blaming the fed for something they did under metaphorical gunpoint. "Too big to fail" isn't just a saying, and ultimately if we are to blame someone other than our financial oppressors, the responsibility rests on the people for not standing up in unison against the bailouts. But the blame circles back to our financial oppressors and their use of propaganda and socio-economic control.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#247

Post by jayd16 »

greeneggs wrote: post #142
FullMtlAlcoholc wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison guards aren't regularly raking in six figures, they make on average less than police officers. Ultimately, I think you've got it the other way around. Prisons don't build themselves, contracts are put out for their construction, their vastly overpriced buses, cells, etc. For example, the absolutely disgusting and dehumanizing water fountain/toilet combo, ensuring that every sip you take you smell and taste fec…

"More than a third of officers [at the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation] make more than $100,000 a year." http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/watchdog/sdut-priso... (dated 3/25/2015)

That doesn't seem very outrageous. Even at $500m in overtime that's only 5% of the total prison budget. You'd probably have to hire up to counter the overtime cost so its not like its more than a few percentage points of waste.

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#248

Post by kombucha2 »

phonon wrote: post #156
kombucha2 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of my ordeal I had to pay 25 dollars of non-refundable "court costs". There is a Supreme Court to be decided on soon which should determine the constitutionality of this practice even after one has been exonerated.

You mean NELSON v. COLORADO? Good news! https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1256_5i36.pdf

I do mean Nelson and I am elated! Didn't notice they had already announced the decision, I'm behind it seems. Ty!

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#249

Post by jmcdiesel »

danielam wrote: post #192
wonderous wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Legally speaking seems like in the US that prisoners are slaves. SOURCE: https://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/13thamendment.htm...

If hard labor is the punishment, and the punishment is commensurate with the crime, then no, it's not slavery. Slavery obtains under different conditions.

I think the fact that said labor is profited from by private companies changes the dynamic, though...

Re: Housing a prisoner in California costs more than a year at Harvard

#250

Post by grasshopperpurp »

emodendroket wrote: post #224
narag wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A clue: there are a number of religions that include the concept of hell. Hell is the ultimate retribution, in case society wasn't able to apply it in this world. The underlying idea is that justice is a balance. If someone commits a crime, the reality is unbalanced and equilibrium must be restored punishing the culprit. This idea has been developed by some philosophers, Kant IIRC (but a lot of Kant's work is mostly…

The idea that some people are irredeemable seems to be rather against the current of most Christian thought.

America's brand of Christianity doesn't care about Jesus. It cares about the wrath of the Old Testament and the rules of Paul.
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