Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#361

Post by miloignis » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:05 AM UTC

Gruselbauer wrote: post #271

achou wrote: post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

Absolutely true for older generations, but among those under, say, forty years of age, the 'I don't have anything to hide' fallacy is alive and well just as anywhere else. I'm German and it's been a huge ordeal to get my closest friends to migrate to Telegram at least. Signal was debated, but the lack of a good desktop client killed it. XMPP and IRC and all, not with these guys. Germany has some vocal proponents of p…

May I suggest Matrix/Riot? It's been posted on HN a few times and seems to be growing really nicely - I've gotten pretty into it over the past few days. Open source, federated, syncs between devices, interoperable with bridges to other protocols like IRC, web/Android/iOS clients, e2e encryption (similar algorithm to Signal) is being tested on web and is planned to arrive on mobile in a month or two. http://matrix.org/

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#362

Post by Klockan » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 4:15 AM UTC

danarmak wrote: post #221

rmc wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suppose a service requires data transmission to operate, either intrinsically, or it just chooses to require it No services really requires data transmission. It's just the owners have decided to run it that way. > I expect users will check the checkbox without reading any explanations, just as today they click "I Agree" without reading anything. Within EU Data Protection law, you have to get "freely given, informe…

> No services really requires data transmission. Some services do. For instance, Waze builds live traffic maps because all its users upload their locations / speed / etc. > It's just the owners have decided to run it that way. Which is their right, as long as the users give informed consent. What I would like to know is how, in practice, such consent can be sought or given. > And a checkbox which links to 30 pages of…

Oauth popups is a good example of how to give consent. They are opt in and usually say exactly to whom you share information and what kind of information they will get.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#363

Post by moftz » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 5:09 AM UTC

wolfgke wrote: post #281

ajuc wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can develop a phone using open band (CB radio for example).

At least in Germany, where I live, there are similar regulations concerning permission to build your own radio device for CB band as for baseband processors (i.e. if you want to legally use your self-built device there are strong restrictions (CE certifications are nearly unaffordable for makers). Also in CB bands you are not allowed to encrypt the sent data. Thus not an option for people caring about privacy.

In the US, for pretty much all open frequencies that require either no license, a de facto license (owning a device gives you a license, CB), or a certification test based license do not allow any sort of scrambling or encryption unless the gov't is able to decode what you are sending. A third party successfully listening in defeats the entire purpose of obscuring what you are saying.

But, if you can afford an expensive license from the FCC for operating on other (commercial) bands, you can secure your communications from prying eyes.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#364

Post by cortesoft » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 5:17 AM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #275

cortesoft wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could someone have me in their Facebook contacts if I don't have an account?

Because for example you could have sent them an Email, SMS or called at some point and are in their phone contacts/contact book. That user then shared their phone contacts with FB. So even though you may not have signed up for FB, they have [your name]{your number} in a table somewhere so that when and if you do sign-up it will be easy to link you with people you already have contacted.

You know, in the old days everyone had a whole book that was basically a table of everyone's name and phone number.

It was called the telephone book.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#365

Post by bduerst » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #351

bduerst wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the difference here that you have the freedom to leave or not use Whatsapp if you wanted to? Even the supposed FB shadow profiles would be hard pressed to reconstruct habit information.

It's a natural monopoly via network externality. Leave facebook, you miss information your friends and family post to facebook because that's enough. Leave whatsapp - you now can't message with encryption to a large number of your contacts. But yes, absolutely you should have signal. Everyone should. That's not the reality we're faced with. Whatsapp message to Dad is better than plaintext - that doesn't mean facebook…

The same could be said about automobile manufacturers or any other industry with an oligopoly.

That still doesn't make it East Block Germany.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#366

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #351

bduerst wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the difference here that you have the freedom to leave or not use Whatsapp if you wanted to? Even the supposed FB shadow profiles would be hard pressed to reconstruct habit information.

It's a natural monopoly via network externality. Leave facebook, you miss information your friends and family post to facebook because that's enough. Leave whatsapp - you now can't message with encryption to a large number of your contacts. But yes, absolutely you should have signal. Everyone should. That's not the reality we're faced with. Whatsapp message to Dad is better than plaintext - that doesn't mean facebook…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#367

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 6:51 AM UTC

harry8 wrote: post #351

bduerst wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the difference here that you have the freedom to leave or not use Whatsapp if you wanted to? Even the supposed FB shadow profiles would be hard pressed to reconstruct habit information.

It's a natural monopoly via network externality. Leave facebook, you miss information your friends and family post to facebook because that's enough. Leave whatsapp - you now can't message with encryption to a large number of your contacts. But yes, absolutely you should have signal. Everyone should. That's not the reality we're faced with. Whatsapp message to Dad is better than plaintext - that doesn't mean facebook…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#368

Post by fauigerzigerk » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 7:04 AM UTC

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #354

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which seems to be a different argument entirely, namely one of weighing the positive externalities against the negative externalities? Not just that, it's also about weighing the restrictions on personal freedoms against the extent of negative externalities. In some cases the protection of personal freedoms is absolute. The ban on torture is a precedent for that. >Now, there is actually precedent for banning consent…

> What is likely to have an effect on democracy is when governments analyze data for political reasons. What if companies analyze data for political reasons? > Where that happens, people will simply stop volunteering so much private information. They don't need to be banned from doing that. Except that they don't. Heard of a certain Edward Snowden, maybe? Except that they can't because the data is already there and i…

I never disputed that there are dangers and negative externalities to lack of privacy. But democracy falling apart isn't one of them.

Your logic is flawed. You are reversing cause and effect. Where there is a lack of democracy, privacy is often taken away in order to make it easier to oppress political opponents. But giving up some privacy in exchange for services doesn't make that happen. Yes the Stasi would love Facebook's database, but using Facebook doesn't cause the Stasi.

Snowden isn't proof of that at either. The NSA hasn't hunted down and imprisoned supporters of Bernie Sanders after all, has it? American democracy hasn't fallen apart and where it is lacking it has little to do with Facebook.

But please don't get me wrong. I find it very problematic when governments scan everybody's data. It could have an effect on how people behave even if it doesn't make democracy fall apart. It may deter people from doing perferctly legal things because they could be misinterpreted. None of that is voluntary though. I haven't given the NSA permission to scan my data at all.

I don't use Facbook and I am very careful with information I make available publicly. I just don't feel very threatened by any negative externalities created by those who choose to use Facebook.

My problem with your line of thinking is that you are extrapolating every single danger to the extreme until you arrive at the conclusion that people must be banned from ever making these choices. As I said, you can ban everything based on that sort of thinking.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#369

Post by teekert » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 7:22 AM UTC

leshow wrote: post #110

teekert wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatsapp gained massive users with their "no commercials ever" claim. They were a small independent company. And people arguably got invested in the network as a result. Now they reverse on that but the public feels locked in. I myself think... just switch to Signal or Telegram, but the amount of WA users is simply massive here in the EU. Everybody uses it.

Telegram is a terrible platform and not at all comparable to signal.

Maybe encryption-wise but function-wise it is miles ahead of both WA and signal. There are bots, stickers, live preview of gifs and (YouTube) movies, an audio player built in, an API, real desktop clients (yes I understand that breaks e2e encryption but it's nice when my phone battery is dead I can still send people messages), channels, cloud storage. Still it feels faster than WA. WA is a (very) local minimum and moves very slowly, we can do much better as users.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#370

Post by yAnonymous » Wed, Sep 28, 2016, 7:45 AM UTC

quickben wrote: post #355

yAnonymous wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's never going to happen. The reason they make so much money is because they're the only ones who have that amount of interconnected user data. Sharing it would be the stupidest thing they could possibly do.

Well, you are sort of on the right track. If they interconnect the data even more, they'll make more money. Why is a merger that impossible in your books. It will be just business between two advertising companies.

Yes, but if they share their data with anyone else, it loses its value. That's why they go to such great lengths to collect all data on their own instead of working together.

Look at Google Analytics for the perfect example: Millions of websites help Google collect data, but they only ever get anonymized data in return. Google keep the valuable stuff to themselves.