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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#351

Post by harry8 »

bduerst wrote: post #296
achou wrote: post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

Isn't the difference here that you have the freedom to leave or not use Whatsapp if you wanted to? Even the supposed FB shadow profiles would be hard pressed to reconstruct habit information.

It's a natural monopoly via network externality.

Leave facebook, you miss information your friends and family post to facebook because that's enough.

Leave whatsapp - you now can't message with encryption to a large number of your contacts.

But yes, absolutely you should have signal. Everyone should. That's not the reality we're faced with. Whatsapp message to Dad is better than plaintext - that doesn't mean facebook can be as crooked as they like when they provide that.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#352

Post by leshow »

vazamb wrote: post #145
leshow wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram is a terrible platform and not at all comparable to signal.

Could you elaborate? I am using Telegram not because of privacy concerns but because of the desktop and tablet clients. I had absolutely no issues so far.

It's not end-to-end encrypted, so telegram still has access to all your messages and can turn over data in the case of a subpoena or if they just feel like it.

the desktop client was not encrypted at all last i checked, only the mobile client.

signal is e2e encrypted, it's in a completely different ballpark

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#353

Post by leshow »

moxie wrote: post #269
FabHK wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram's weak points, as far as I can tell: * chats not end-to-end encrypted by default (only secure chats), so clear text is on their servers * group chats can't be secure chats * the crypto is somewhat unconventional. While the developers had their reasons (constraints of mobile platforms), and no exploit has been found so far, AFAIK, any self-rolled crypto is a bit of a red flag to cryptographers. * I have no re…

Wire does not use Signal Protocol. They use a protocol of their own devising that we do not recommend.

hey moxie! thanks for your work on signal

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#354

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #314
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which seems to be a different argument entirely, namely one of weighing the positive externalities against the negative externalities? I guess I would agree with that. Now, there is actually precedent for banning consenting adults from sharing private information in order to ensure the survival of the democracy that is quite common in stable democracies: You are usually not allowed to prove to third parties how you v…

>Which seems to be a different argument entirely, namely one of weighing the positive externalities against the negative externalities? Not just that, it's also about weighing the restrictions on personal freedoms against the extent of negative externalities. In some cases the protection of personal freedoms is absolute. The ban on torture is a precedent for that. >Now, there is actually precedent for banning consent…

> What is likely to have an effect on democracy is when governments analyze data for political reasons.

What if companies analyze data for political reasons?

> Where that happens, people will simply stop volunteering so much private information. They don't need to be banned from doing that.

Except that they don't. Heard of a certain Edward Snowden, maybe?

Except that they can't because the data is already there and isn't under the control of the affected people?

Except that the nature of data is that people don't know how it's being processed?

Except that there are network effects that limit people's actual freedom to decline using a quasi-monopolist's services?

Your argument could pretty much be applied to the Stasi in the GDR: Do you have an idea what the consequences were when individuals simply stopped providing more data?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#355

Post by quickben »

yAnonymous wrote: post #111
ComodoHacker wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funniest part will begin when Google start sharing user data with Facebook and vice versa, for mutual benefit. Perhaps only then regular users will start thinking about privacy.

That's never going to happen. The reason they make so much money is because they're the only ones who have that amount of interconnected user data. Sharing it would be the stupidest thing they could possibly do.

Well, you are sort of on the right track. If they interconnect the data even more, they'll make more money. Why is a merger that impossible in your books. It will be just business between two advertising companies.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#356

Post by rdiddly »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #287
oldmanjay wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an addiction that can be quit instantly with no ill effects using nothing more than the willpower it takes to turn down a second slice of cake. Unfortunately I can't imagine what sort of social service can teach all these progressively-more-coddled generations how to tap willpower.

This is not a useful argument. One could certainly stop stop Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, Snapchat and so on. But you'd have to consider what the impact is; maybe you'll become more distant from friends and family. Maybe you'll miss out on events. These things are pretty important, for obvious reasons, and it's a shallow argument that everybody can simply walk away "instantly with no ill effects". It's up to the indi…

Both the "friends and family" and "events" arguments sound like something Facebook itself might say, in the course of its browbeating you with subtle fear-mongering. Take it from me, the impact might actually turn out to be much less than you think. In some cases (like mine), it's even a positive. For example, not going to every single "event" leaves more time for all sorts of productive activity. Not keeping up with what everybody else is doing, leaves more time for you to actually do something yourself. And a certain amount of distance from friends and (especially in my case) family is actually fucking GREAT.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#357

Post by pjlegato »

achou wrote: post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

And yet Germany operates a massively well-funded federal security service that is conducting exactly that sort of mass surveillance today -- only now far more sophisticated than even Facebook, since they can surveil the entire Internet, in exactly the same manner as the NSA does. Other European countries are doing the same.

It's at best naive and at worst hypocritical to pretend that Europeans care so much more about personal privacy than Americans do while that is going on.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#358

Post by rdiddly »

lbebber wrote: post #239
ryandrake wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

That snark is uncalled for. Stopping using WhatsApp and Facebook would make communication with some groups much more difficult for me, for example, because everyone uses them.

The larger point: Has it been meaningfully asked, and conclusively decided, that that amount of communication with those groups is a positive benefit to your life, large enough to justify all the hassle and humiliation of dealing with Facebook? Without adding any further snark, I would just like to offer my (probably fairly extreme on the continuum) viewpoint of, maybe fuck those groups.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#359

Post by Gruselbauer »

harry8 wrote: post #348
sasvari wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

compared to signal, telegram can be used by android users without gapps (the telegram client can be installed via f-droid). as much as I would like to use signal, I can't.

compared to signal, telegram stores all your messages on a server you don't control in plaintext. It's not the answer.

I know. But that's really where I, personally, make the decision to not care. Group chat with two dozen mates equals stupid banter, exchange of memes, lately some pictures of the young ones everyone seems to suddenly have, recaps of school day mischief. I don't say anything there I wouldn't say in a crowded room and neither does anyone else.

For something as deviously criminal as 'you got pot man?', the private chat function is alright.

Obviously the 'nothing to hide' fallacy is nonsense, but so is pretending every communication warrants the highest security parameters at our disposal.

Signal is a nice app, have it installed among pretty much every other messenger. But none of my friends, colleagues and coworkers use it. I have one contact out of almost a thousand on there. The desktop client only runs in a browser, Telegram can be open on all kinds of devices and synch up (ncTelegram on a VPS where pretty much all my communication is relayed, in my case)...

I know all the criticism, from the question of why they had to cook up their own crypto and nonfree server to the Russians behind it. It's still the best app I could sell to a lot of people who're not even close to tech literate.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#360

Post by Klockan »

chopin wrote: post #248
bad_user wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ING, a bank, is starting to require WhatsApp instead of email for customer service, in the Netherlands I think. You're not that far off ;-)

Such a requirement would terminate my relationship with them immediately...

What if every bank started requiring it?
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