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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

251–260 of 441 posts

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#251
A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by the collection of the most trivial details. They weren't fomenting revolution or doing anything remotely disruptive. They thought nobody would pay much attention to a bunch of harmless random students. They were wrong.

Memories like this still have force in Europe. I have to believe that their history makes many Europeans queasy about the collection of mass information. It is also easy to see how these laws could be exploited by large companies in Europe for their own commercial interest. Still, these laws have a moral force and US companies are stupid to try to circumvent, belittle, or ignore them. The desire for privacy has deep roots; it is not a nuisance to be swatted away on the path towards maximal profits.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

Facebook will still build a "shadow profile" of you, based on information gleaned from contacts.

How could someone have me in their Facebook contacts if I don't have an account?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users already opt into using a service like WhatsApp. They are presented with TOS on first use / account creation. Whatsapp changed their TOS and presented the new TOS to existing users when they first opened the app after the change. Doesn't this already satisfy your requirements? It is, of course, well known that users never read TOS / EULA for software or services.

> They are presented with TOS on first use Exactly. So I printed it out, made the changes I wanted to see, signed it and send it to Facebook with a notice that continuing to provide me with service constitutes acceptance. I didn't really do this, but it seems like it should be as legally binding as a click through EULA.

"Clicking means agreement" at least makes sense, even if it might not be enough to satisfy contract law in some countries. "Keeping doing what you were doing anyway and ignoring me means agreement" is clearly nonsense.

If your argument is that click-through agreements are invalid in general, then no Internet services at all are legal, no matter how benevolent their TOS is to the user, how simple it is, or how clearly it's written and presented. The same goes for software licenses.

The law says that by default, absent a contract that says otherwise, you are not allowed to use software, and you are not allowed to use online services that require login and a TOS click-through. If you want to use them, you have to agree to some offer made by the provider or the copyright holder. And you can only agree to an offer they actually make.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

That snark is uncalled for. Stopping using WhatsApp and Facebook would make communication with some groups much more difficult for me, for example, because everyone uses them.

Ok, so in return Facebook and WhatsApp get to learn about you. That is the cost of doing business with them.

Why is that cost so different than the normal cost we pay for things (cash money)? Yes, things we value have costs. It is always a sacrifice to go without that thing, but if we want to AVOID having to go without it, we have to pay something.

"I can't believe you are making me pay this cell phone bill! I have no choice but to use it, and you are CHARGING ME MONEY for it?! This is outrageous!"

I mean, there are things we need even more that we have to pay for - food, shelter, etc. In order to get something from someone else, you have to give them something in return that they value. That is just how the world works.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook will still build a "shadow profile" of you, based on information gleaned from contacts.

How could someone have me in their Facebook contacts if I don't have an account?

I believe they meant phone contacts since Facebook et al request phonebook permissions.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#257
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too. Post office as well. Can phone operators sell the social graph of users to 3rd parties, then? It's so dumb...

> Using a cellphone is voluntarily, too. Indeed. But the difference is that it is legal (and possible) to program a very open (and privacy-conscious) messaging service. On the other hand, it is completely illegal (in the US by FCC ruling) to develop a completely free and open baseband processor and use it. It is also nearly impossible to set up an alternative cellphone network since you need licenses for using the pa…

You can develop a phone using open band (CB radio for example).

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#258
post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

WhatsApp users were estimated to have a seven year useful life at the time of their sale. Facebook will want a profit on them, but if the estimate was accurate, there are only five years left until they are used up. Facebook may become increasingly desperate to transfer any remaining users into their primary product.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That snark is uncalled for. Stopping using WhatsApp and Facebook would make communication with some groups much more difficult for me, for example, because everyone uses them.

Ok, so in return Facebook and WhatsApp get to learn about you. That is the cost of doing business with them. Why is that cost so different than the normal cost we pay for things (cash money)? Yes, things we value have costs. It is always a sacrifice to go without that thing, but if we want to AVOID having to go without it, we have to pay something. "I can't believe you are making me pay this cell phone bill! I have n…

When you pay cash your business relation ends there. When you pay with your personal information...it never ends.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#260

You can go get an off-contract sim card, use it on a clean Android, create a fake gmail account in order to download and install Whatsapp. Now you make connections (you add family and friends to your contacts) and start communicating. By now both FB and Google know who you are simply b/c other people in your network, not concerned with privacy, have you saved on their contacts list, pressumably under your first and l…

>THERE IS NO ESCAPE. Unless you do what they themselves say you should do if you do not agree with the terms: don't use their services. Or as so many others have called out in the thread - you get legislative relief.

Except I do not trust my government. Do you?
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