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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#301

Post by bduerst »

Gracana wrote: post #264
cortesoft wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so in return Facebook and WhatsApp get to learn about you. That is the cost of doing business with them. Why is that cost so different than the normal cost we pay for things (cash money)? Yes, things we value have costs. It is always a sacrifice to go without that thing, but if we want to AVOID having to go without it, we have to pay something. "I can't believe you are making me pay this cell phone bill! I have n…

If I give someone money, it is their money and they can do what they want with it, it does not matter to me. If I give someone information about myself, it's still connected to me, but now it's under their control. They can use it to exploit or harm me, and so can anyone they sell it to, or anyone who steals it. It's that indeterminate potential for future abuse that makes it important. That's why we consider it diff…

That's a moot argument because every human transaction, whether money or messaging, has meta data tied to it that can be exploited by bad actors.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#302

Post by type0 »

snerbles wrote: post #241
ryandrake wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could always, I dunno... stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software that you find harmful. I know, totally crazy idea. Just throwing it out there.

Facebook will still build a "shadow profile" of you, based on information gleaned from contacts.

Not just contacts, some users obsessively tag photos with full name even when they captured non-fb users in their photos. And often there is no way for non-users to find out about it other than by joining facebook.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#303

Post by thebakeshow »

zigzigzag wrote: post #286
smokeyj wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adopting an alternative to Zuckernet is the exact opposite. Continuing to hand your life's data to Zuck is to throw your hands up. Begging your politician for a little privacy from Zuck when strong encryption exists is to throw your hands up. People care enough about privacy to complain about it but not enough to do anything. I don't have much sympathy for them.

We're talking about WhatsApp here right? Which already uses strong encryption?

What does that have to do with privacy? Just because the data is encrypted doesn't mean it can't be harvested by FB

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#304

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

achou wrote: post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

While I agree with spirit of your comment, in practice I have to check my beliefs.

I don't think Europeans really care that much. As evidence I present the title of the article which conspicuously doesn't read "Facebook ordered to stop collecting data on Facebook users".

If people really cared about mass surveillance would they actively participate in Facebook et al?

I don't use Facebook, Twitter, etc, ostensibly because I'm not keen on mass surveillance. But if I'm truly honest with myself it's because I know I'll post things I'll later wish I hadn't.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#305

Post by technofiend »

smokeyj wrote: post #231
technofiend wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But if you have a database of the entire population and can correlate relationships in data That's exactly what the legislation constrains - Zuck's select * from where user_id = 'technofiend' returns 3 rows not hundreds or thousands, or zero if I've opted out of data collection entirely. You can't simply throw your hands up and say "Well Facebook has a billion users too bad so sad if they collect data you don't like…

Adopting an alternative to Zuckernet is the exact opposite. Continuing to hand your life's data to Zuck is to throw your hands up. Begging your politician for a little privacy from Zuck when strong encryption exists is to throw your hands up. People care enough about privacy to complain about it but not enough to do anything. I don't have much sympathy for them.

Short of using tor I'm not sure anything else really can work. You can dump all the cookies, block all the javascript and use all the VPNs you want but ad companies are working very hard to break through those protections. And until there is a law forbidding them to do so, they'll just keep doing it.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#306

Post by reitanqild »

eropple wrote: post #291
wolfgke wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you square that circle for me and explain what you're doing to be an activist while eschewing the social sphere? I don't eschew the social sphere, but I strongly lack charisma/am socially rather clumsy and rather the kind of person who has difficulties forming friendships, thus I'm not very social.

OK--so how are you, as you define it, an "activist"? Activism, to my mind, requires social interaction and engagement. I'm curious as to what I'm missing.

Let me help here:

There is a whole lot you can do without one-to-one social face-to-face interaction and engagement.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#307

Post by type0 »

Throwaway23412 wrote: post #273
cortesoft wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could someone have me in their Facebook contacts if I don't have an account?

I haven't activated my FB account in years now, but can't members still add you as a family member even if you don't have an account? I avoid FB more out of principle, not because of some deluded idea that I can avoid FB having my information. The solution "stop using Facebook and WhatsApp and other software" is harmful at worst and flippant at best. Unless you never get your photo taken, your face is on FB and any o…

> The idea that not using these services stops them from getting your information is fanciful, because your friends and family have no problem giving your information.

The problem is that sometimes this information is incorrect and based on gossips. When would you know that it resulted in real life consequences, can fb sell this info to e.g. insurance companies?

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#308

Post by sasvari »

glasz wrote: post #293
Gruselbauer wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely true for older generations, but among those under, say, forty years of age, the 'I don't have anything to hide' fallacy is alive and well just as anywhere else. I'm German and it's been a huge ordeal to get my closest friends to migrate to Telegram at least. Signal was debated, but the lack of a good desktop client killed it. XMPP and IRC and all, not with these guys. Germany has some vocal proponents of p…

telegram was sort of a bad choice: https://www.eff.org/node/82654 signal desktop (granted, stupid chrome plugin but official): signal.org/desktop

compared to signal, telegram can be used by android users without gapps (the telegram client can be installed via f-droid). as much as I would like to use signal, I can't.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#309

Post by zigzigzag »

thebakeshow wrote: post #303
zigzigzag wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about WhatsApp here right? Which already uses strong encryption?

What does that have to do with privacy? Just because the data is encrypted doesn't mean it can't be harvested by FB

WhatsApp is end to end encrypted. Facebook/WhatsApp can't see the contents of the messages. It's the best technology available at the moment - there are no non-toy systems that also scramble metadata.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#310

Post by CaptSpify »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #304
achou wrote: post #251

A former colleague of mine who was a distinguished academic and successful tech executive grew up in East Germany. After the Berlin wall fell, he was able to enter the building where they kept the dossiers. He found his own file and was astounded by the information they had on him. His friends, his work, his habits. Photos of himself going about his business. His social circles. His friends were equally shocked by th…

While I agree with spirit of your comment, in practice I have to check my beliefs. I don't think Europeans really care that much. As evidence I present the title of the article which conspicuously doesn't read "Facebook ordered to stop collecting data on Facebook users". If people really cared about mass surveillance would they actively participate in Facebook et al? I don't use Facebook, Twitter, etc, ostensibly bec…

> If people really cared about mass surveillance would they actively participate in Facebook et al?

The problem is: These people weren't using Facebook. They were using WhatsApp which promised to not send their data to Facebook.

I don't use either because I personally think it's silly to assume they won't sell your data to someone, but they did make the promise that they wouldn't.

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